Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 419

Mon, 15 Dec 2008

• 1. Re: Drazin book on Rambam - (Zev Sero)
• 2. RSRH about Shimon and Levi (Meir Rabi)
• 3. Re: 400 men (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: RSRH's Comments on Bereshis 33:4-7 (Zev Sero)
• 5. Truth About Sheva B'rochos (Cantor Wolberg)
• 6. City named after AZ (Dov Kay)
• 7. : esav (SBA)
• 8. Re: : esav (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: : esav (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: City named after AZ (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: 400 men (Micha Berger)
• 12. Admin: question marks (re: RSRH about Shimon and Levi) (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Truth About Sheva B'rochos (Micha Berger)
• 14. Ner ish ubeito (Saul Mashbaum)
• 15. Re: City named after AZ (Zev Sero)

david guttmann wrote:
>  His idea is that originally Misinai there was no Shofar just "shouting"
> as is the >literal< meaning of the word Teruah. The masses because of their
> belief in demonology instituted Shofar because it scares away the demons.

This is, apparently, what the Karaim say.  They call the day "Yom Teruah"
(and accuse us of violating "hachodesh hazeh" by calling it "Rosh Hashana"),
and instead of blowing shofar they all shout and make a loud noise.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

Is it not striking that in the dialogue between YaAkov and his sons, the
Torah leaves the sons with the last word, "should our sister then be treated
like a harlot?"?

[BTW the two question marks looks bizarre is it correct?]

 

Perhaps the response was not a matter of principle, that's no way to treat
my sister; but a matter of survival - If we allow this to go unpunished then
we will certainly be seen as easy prey and attacked from all quarters. Is
the T saying this is a legitimate and unanswerable position? But
nevertheless it is not the T way?

 

In a slightly similar fashion Yosef tells his brothers Bereishis 50:19,
"don't worry I am not going to harm you, even though you deserve to be for
your terrible behaviour [since they never resolved and gained Mechilah from
Yosef] because I understand that this is to meted out by HKBH and I am not
HKBH." This is reflected in the Medrash of R Bachya that the Paytan of the
ten martyrs puts the accusation/rationalisation in the mouth of the torturer
that the martyrs are being tortured for the unresolved sin of the ten
brothers against Yosef. 

 

Meir Rabi

 

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Gershon Dubin wrote:
> The 400 men who deserted Esav were later rewarded, per Rashi, in the
> times of Dovid hamelech.  When did they desert and why were they
> rewarded-it appears that they deserted only after the confrontation with
> Yaakov, so why the reward?

Charvona only turned on Haman after his downfall, and yet he got rewarded
for it.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

T6...@aol.com wrote:

> Hirsch's source is Rashi 33:4 -- Rashi cites two opinions -- the second 
> of which is "shenichmaru rachamav be'osah sha'ah uneshako bechol libo."  
> And that is the obvious pshat.  Midrashim that twist the pshat into 
> pretzels tend not to be Hirsch's preferred midrashim.

Which pshat is obvious depends on how you view "Esav" in general.  The
dots over "vayishakehu" mean that there's something different about it,
that it should be read in an unusual way, almost as if it weren't there.
The first pshat in Rashi takes things simply: the dots are there because
the kiss wasn't really a kiss, it was an attempt to bite him on the neck,
but when he was miraculously prevented from doing so he covered it up as
a kiss.  RSBY says no, that can't be what the dots mean, that's not an
unusual reading, because that's only what one should expect from Esav.
Halacha hi beyadua she'esav sone leyaacov.  If he comes at your chin area
with his mouth, you should expect a bite, not a kiss.  So what do the dots
mean?  Something unusual - almost unheard of.  On this one occasion, Esav
actually felt something like brotherly love.  On this occasion he truly
kissed him.  And that's unusual enough that the Torah has to put dots over
the word, to prevent us from reading it as we normally would.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

It seems that the CS also holds that one can count a katan as a PCh.
Has anyone ever heard that this view of the CS is followed anywhere?

I have heard this view with the proviso that the katan can understand
what is going on.

ri
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R. Zev Sero wrote on Areivim
 
<<The name change [of Bombay to Mumbai] was explicitly for the purpose of honouring an AZ. Going along with it is therefore particularly bad.>>
 
When I was a teenager, I visited the city of Christchurch in New Zealand. 
Should enunciation of the name of this city be forbidden?  Does the fact
that it has become the name of a city make a difference?
 
Kol tuvDov Kay
_________________________________________________________________
Get a bird?s eye view of the world with Multimap
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454059/direct/01/
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rom: "Eli Turkel" 
Rashbam also takes a very positive attitude towards Esav that the 400
men with him were an honor guard and that he was genuine in his good
feelings towards Yaakov.

>>

I learned that today - listening to a CD of a Parsha Shiur which was given
nightly by Reb Yankele zt'l, the Pshevorsker rebbe in Antwerp.

He expresses great astonishment at this Rashbam. 
1) Because the Rashbam usually goes for posheter pshat, and 
2) What is the Rashbam's source for this? 

SBA

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 01:32:59AM +1100, SBA wrote:
: I learned that today - listening to a CD of a Parsha Shiur which was given
: nightly by Reb Yankele zt'l, the Pshevorsker rebbe in Antwerp.
: He expresses great astonishment at this Rashbam. 
: 1) Because the Rashbam usually goes for posheter pshat, and 
: 2) What is the Rashbam's source for this? 

1- Why is the notion that Esav intended kavod, not a threat, a stretch
in the words?

2- I don't know, but I have been wondering why the group of people my
morah or rebbe told me was a violent horde were called "arba mei'os
ISH". Doesn't "ish" have positive connotation? Wouldn't there be in
implicationt that in some way, these weren't mere "anashim".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
mi...@aishdas.org        heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org   Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      It is two who look in the same direction.

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 01:32:59AM +1100, SBA wrote:
: I learned that today - listening to a CD of a Parsha Shiur which was given
: nightly by Reb Yankele zt'l, the Pshevorsker rebbe in Antwerp.
: He expresses great astonishment at this Rashbam. 
: 1) Because the Rashbam usually goes for posheter pshat, and 
: 2) What is the Rashbam's source for this? 

1- Why is the notion that Esav intended kavod, not a threat, a stretch
in the words?

2- I don't know, but I have been wondering why the group of people my
morah or rebbe told me was a violent horde were called "arba mei'os
ISH". Doesn't "ish" have positive connotation? Wouldn't there be in
implicationt that in some way, these weren't mere "anashim".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
mi...@aishdas.org        heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org   Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      It is two who look in the same direction.

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 02:09:24PM +0000, Dov Kay wrote:
: When I was a teenager, I visited the city of Christchurch in New
: Zealand. Should enunciation of the name of this city be forbidden?
: Does the fact that it has become the name of a city make a difference?

A former neighbor of mine spent some years as the "Rabbi of Canturbury"
(under the United Synagogue), titled after the county. Could you just
picture what would happen if his mother had to explain to people about
her son, who had a shtella in Cristchurch?

FWIW, it's named for the church of followers, not directly the
deity. Wonder if that makes a difference lehalakhah. As well as the
fact that the followers in question were engaging in what Tosafos would
consider shituf, not out-n-out AZ.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             In the days of our sages, man didn't sin unless
mi...@aishdas.org        he was overcome with a spirit of foolishness.
http://www.aishdas.org   Today, we don't do a mitzvah unless we receive
Fax: (270) 514-1507      a spirit of purity.      - Rabbi Israel Salanter

On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 09:11:00PM -0500, Gershon Dubin wrote:
: The 400 men who deserted Esav were later rewarded, per Rashi, in the
: times of Dovid hamelech...

I looked at it and left very confused.

Does Bereishis Rabba (quoted by Rashi 33:16) mean that these 400 people
who slipped away 1 by 1 survived, became geirim, and joined David
haMelekh's camel forces?

They were adults in 2208 and lived to see 2884? Not only that, but at
the age of something more than 692, they were called "na'ar"? Before
they fled Esav's cause they were already "ish", now after the laudible
act and its time for the payoff, they're demoted?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
mi...@aishdas.org        this was a great wonder. But it is much more
http://www.aishdas.org   wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "mensch"!     -Rabbi Israel Salanter

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 10:46:02PM +1100, Meir Rabi wrote:
:> Is it not striking that in the dialogue between YaAkov and his sons, the
:> Torah leaves the sons with the last word, "should our sister then be treated
:> like a harlot?"?

: [BTW the two question marks looks bizarre is it correct?]

Just as Hebrew gets converted by the digest software into question
marks, so do other non-ASCII characters.

Including ellipses ("..." as a single character), or fancy open or close
quotes (rather than the neutral vertical ' or ").

When you see too many question marks, try imagining one of those instead
of assuming a typo.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 07:20:55AM -0500, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
:> It seems that the CS also holds that one can count a katan as a PCh.
:> Has anyone ever heard that this view of the CS is followed anywhere?

: I have heard this view with the proviso that the katan can understand
: what is going on.

Since the CS holds that the point of panim chadashos is to add joy to
the meal, why would the qatan have to know what's going on?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

RETurkel
>
There is a major debate among poskim whether one needs a house in
order to light candles. Is the mitzvak on the person (gavra) or the
house (heftza - that each house needs candles). Proofs are brought in
each direction.

As R. Pick indicated R. Elyashiv seems to hold that one who does not
have a home eg an airplane does not light. Other poskim disagree.
Another difference would be soldiers or hikers sleeping outdoors

>
RSZA was definitely of the opinion that the mitzva of ner chanuka is
only in one's house, and those not in a house (such as those the above
mentioned hikers or soldiers) are entirely exempt from the mitzva (See
Halichot Shlomo al Moadei Hasahna, Tishrei Adar, p 257, Shu"t Minchat
Shlomo Tanina 57). This is indicated in  the Rambam Chanuka 4:1 who
specifically mentions "bayit" as where the mitzvais done, and Tosfor
Succa 46a "haroeh".

OTOH, RSZA holds that an airplane (or ship or train) is sufficiently a
domicile to require lighting candles, albeit without a bracha. If the
travelers's family is home and lights for him, he need not light at
all on the plane. Interestingly, RSZA says that even if the traveler
is in a different time zone from his family, and it is not night where
he is, he still is "yotzeh" with his family's lighting.

Since it is normally not possible to light candles on a plane, RZSA
paskened that one should  set up a flashlight on the fold-down table
before one's seat (again, with no bracha), and keep it on for at least
a half an hour

Saul Mashbaum

Dov Kay wrote:
> R. Zev Sero wrote on Areivim
>  
> <<The name change [of Bombay to Mumbai] was explicitly for the purpose 
> of honouring an AZ. Going along with it is therefore particularly bad.>>
>  
> When I was a teenager, I visited the city of Christchurch in New 
> Zealand.  Should enunciation of the name of this city be forbidden?  
> Does the fact that it has become the name of a city make a difference?

1. How are you not seeing the difference between using the original name
of a city, and going along with a change that was made for the explicit
purpose of honouring an AZ?

2. There is no AZ whose name is "Christchurch".  The city was not named
for their god, but for the college in Oxford, which was in turn named for
a church building, which was in turn named for their god.  And since they
are protestants it's at least arguable that he's not an AZ, at least as
they see him.  Not the same thing at all as using the actual name of an
AZ, which was applied to a city for the purpose of honouring it.

3. Despite all the above it is indeed proper not to use it, and those
who are careful and have a Jewish sensitivity try to avoid it.  The
shul, for instance, is called "Canterbury Hebrew Congregation".
(There's a legend, I don't know with what if any basis in fact, that
it was once called by the name of the city, until they got a rabbi who
wrote home to his family about his new job, and his family sat shiva
for him!)


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas


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