Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 403

Wed, 03 Dec 2008

• 1. effects of religous worship no health (Steven J Scher)
• 2. Re: R' Aviner on gadol hador status (David Riceman)
• 3. Gadol Hador (Cantor Wolberg)
• 4. Re: R' Aviner on gadol hador status (Ben Waxman)
• 5. Re: RSRH: A Time-Honored Jewish custom (Ira Tick)
• 6. Re: R' Aviner on gadol hador status (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: R' Aviner on gadol hador status (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 8. Re: R' Aviner on gadol hador status (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 9. Hebrew terms harag, razah and hemis (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 10. Re: Harag, ratzach, heimis (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 11. Re: effects of religous worship no health (Daniel Israel)
• 12. Re: Kim Leih Bid'rabba mineih (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 13. Re: Dying al Kiddush Hashem (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 14. Re: Dying al Kiddush Hashem (Daniel Israel)

>
> On Mon, Dec 01, 2008 at 11:26:44AM -0600, Steven J Scher wrote:
> : This is the big problem I have with this type of study.
>
> : What we are saying is that HaShem, simply to convince people of His
> : existence, would treat one randomly chosen group of people substantially
> : better than another randomly chosen group of people.  This doesn't sound to
> : me like the God who was willing to spare a whole city of reshaim if 10
> : tzaddikim could be found.

R'MB replied:
> That's how the study is being used. In reality, all the study is really
> saying is that people who take quiet time out each week to pray, or in
> the case of Buddhists to meditate -- without even necessarily involving
> any notion of deity! -- are more likely to live longer.
>

There are actually lots of explanations -- other than the existence of God 
-- that could explain studies like the one that started this discussion 
off: where people who pray are shown to have better health outcomes and 
report being happier with their lives.  (My research, as well as 
at least one other study, shows that it actually depends also on what you 
are doing when you pray).

However, the hypothetical study (first proposed by Yitzchak Grossman) that 
I am referring to in the quote above was about the effect of people prayed 
for, not the pray-ers (as Micha suggests below):

> If the study were about the people prayed for rather than the people
> praying, and one can show that the recipient's health didn't correlate to
> their own religiosity, then it would be easier to tie to religious import.
>

My problem with this was that in order for it to actually provide evidence 
(not proof... science isn't math or philosophy; it doesn't PROVE anything) 
of God's existence, it would 
have to work so that a randomly selected group of patients is prayed for, 
and a randomly selected group of patients is not prayed for.  And, 
therefore, HaShem would have to make patients have better outcomes at 
random, regardless of His plans or the zechus of the patients 
themselves.  The only reason He would do this, I imagine, is that He wants 
to provide evidence of his existence.


ME:

>> What we are saying is that HaShem, simply to convince people of His existence,
>> would treat one randomly chosen group of people substantially better than
>> another randomly chosen group of people.  This doesn't sound to me like the God
>> who was willing to spare a whole city of reshaim if 10 tzaddikim could be
>> found.
>

R'YG:

> We are not saying that He would do so "simply to convince people of His
> existence"; on the contrary, I am saying that as long as He can be
> expected to act according to the normal ways in which we are told He
> acts, i.e. as a Shomai'a Tefillah, we ought to be able to measure and
> quantify this effect. ...


Yes, He's a Shmoai'a Tefillah, but He is also an Ohavei Mishpat v'Tzedek. 
HaShem hears all prayers, but doesn't necessarily act on all of them (at 
least not necessarily in the way that the person praying wants).  I 
referred to Avram's pleading for the potential tzadikkim of Sdom to 
reference the fact that HaShem is willing to go out of His way to spare 
those who are deserving. So, what would be His reasoning for treating 
those patients who are not deserving, but just happened to be prayed for 
as part of our study, better than those who are more deserving, but were 
randomly assigned into the non-prayer group?

The only thing that I could think of is that He would do it because He 
wants to provide us evidence of His existence -- but it seems like (a) 
that's not really a good enough reason to otherwise circumvent His middah 
of justice, and (b) He has other, much more convincing ways at His 
disposal to provide this evidence if He really wanted.

This is at the root of my statemnt early on in this debate: "I find it 
very hard to imagine studies that COULD offer proof of HaShem's existence. 
What would such evidence look like?"


[I find that I have to add a clarifying note to this quote: Note that 
I use 'proof' and 'evidence' synonomously.  This is a consequence of my 
scientific training.  Its all evidence, not proof.  See above.

Also, I mean SCIENTIFIC STUDIES, rather than personal experience or 
anecdotal evidence such as that offered by Rn TK.  As several people have 
noted (including Rn Katz herself), anecdotal evidence can be interpreted 
both ways.  Personal experience is unlikely to be felt or at least be 
convincing to those who are not already inclined to seek HaShem.  Thus, 
this evidence is relevant for our individual belief, but doesn't do much 
to provide evidence to the rest of the world].

Rich, Joel wrote:
> Here yes - see for example S"A Y"D 244:10
>   
It's true that the language is ambiguous, but I don't think that either 
the Rama or the Trumath HaDeshen needs to be understood as saying that 
"gadol hador" is a position which can be occupied by only one person at 
a time.

David Riceman

"Even after many years I dont think there is any such thing as THE  
gadol hador.
Choose between Rashba and Rosh????
Among achronim its even harder or rather impossible."

I totally agree with Eli.  To start naming who you think are the  
G'dolei Hador is like naming the lamed vov'niks. It's quite possible  
the Gadol Hador is someone
that is not obvious. It seems frivolous to name a Gadol Hador as  
authoritatively as some have.

ri


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Not true. In a history book I have on the era, the author brings statements 
by the Ba'al haTanya in which he acknowledges that the Gra is the 
uncontested gadol hador. That is why it was so important for the Ba'al 
haTanya to meet with the Gra.

Ben
 Looking back now, for example, I think  everybody would agree that the
> Rambam was "the" godol hador of his dor, and the  Vilna Gaon was "the" 
> godol
> hador of his dor, but in their lifetimes I don't  think their status was
> uncontested.
>
> --Toby Katz 

On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 1:06 PM, Yitzchok Levine
<Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>wrote:

>  In his essay on The Jewish Woman<htt
>  p://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/jewish_woman.pdf>RSRH
>  discusses how Rivka was chosen to be Yitzchok's wife.  On pages 107 -
> 108 he writes regarding how this Shidduch was decided upon and then comments
> on how other shidduchim should be decided upon. YL
>
> It is significant that the one person whose wishes should have been
> regarded as decisive in this arrangement has nothing to say in the matter.
> Isaac, whose wishes should have mattered the most, remains silent
> throughout. While Rebecca is asked for her approval before any arrangements
> are made in her behalf, Isaac permits his father and his father's faithful
> servant complete freedom to act for him in a matter which, more than
> anything else, will be decisive for his personal happiness.
>

I actually wondered recently how Eliezer did not violate the rule that a man
must see his intended before kiddushin can be made.  I am of course
assuming, and could be very wrong, that when Eliezer gave her the rings, he
was acting as a shliach for Yitzchak to affect kiddushin on his behalf.
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David Riceman wrote:
> Rich, Joel wrote:
>> Here yes - see for example S"A Y"D 244:10
>>   
> It's true that the language is ambiguous, but I don't think that either 
> the Rama or the Trumath HaDeshen needs to be understood as saying that 
> "gadol hador" is a position which can be occupied by only one person at 
> a time.

Indeed it's surely impossible for the Rema to have meant that literally.
How, in his day, was a Jew in Poland to know whether there might not be
someone in Morocco or Iraq or Yemen who was greater than the "godol hador"
of whom he knew?  The possibility must surely have occurred to him, and
yet he writes this as a practical halacha.  The most obvious answer is
that it's not meant literally, and that it applies to someone universally
acknowledged as the greatest T"Ch in Poland, or at most Eastern Europe,
even if there is someone greater than him elsewhere.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

R' David Riceman:
> It's true that the language is ambiguous, but I don't think that either
> the Rama or the Trumath HaDeshen needs to be understood as saying that
> "gadol hador" is a position which can be occupied by only one person at
> a time.

Gemara Mefureshes: Sukkah 47a.

KT,
MYG

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 23:20:07 +0200
Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il> wrote:

> Not true. In a history book I have on the era, the author brings statements 
> by the Ba'al haTanya in which he acknowledges that the Gra is the 
> uncontested gadol hador. That is why it was so important for the Ba'al 
> haTanya to meet with the Gra.

Sources and exact quotes?

> Ben

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 00:58:20 EST
T6...@aol.com wrote:

...

> those two words on the one hand, and lehamis on the other  hand.  IIANM the Torah 
> always uses "lehamis" to describe a lawful killing,  e.g., when a bais din 
> executes someone.  

Incorrect; while lawful or legitimate killing is apparently the most
common connotation of the transitive forms of the root 'mus', there are
numerous examples of their connoting illegitimate killing, particularly
political assassinations:

ve'im shor nagah hu ... ve'hemis ish o ishah (Shemos 21:29)
al yomar adoni es kol ha'ne'arim benei ha'melech hemisu (Shmuel
II:13:32)
vayaku es Gedalyahu ben Ahikam ben Shafan ba'herev vayames
oso (Yirmihayu 41:2)
va'yikshor alav Shalum ben Yavesh ya'yakehu kavel am va'yemisehu va'yimloch
tahtav (Melachim II:15:10)
va'yach es Shalum ben Yavesh be'Shomron va'yemisehu va'yimloch tahtav
(ibid. 14)
va'yikshor alav Pekah ben Remalyahu shalisho va'yakehu be'Shomron ...
va'yemisehu va'yimloch tahtav (ibid. 25)
ya'yikshor kesher Hoshea ben Elah al Pekah ben Remalyahu va'yakehu
va'yemisehu (ibid. 30)
va'yiksheru avdei Amon alav va'yamisu es ha'melech be'veiso (ibid. 21:23)
be'yamav alah Pharaoh Nechoh melech Mizrayim al meleh Ashur al nehar Peras
va'yelech ha'melech Yoshiahu likraso va'yemisehu be'Megido ke'r'osos oso (ibid. 23:29)

> --Toby Katz

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

On Tue, 2 Dec 2008 16:42:22 -0500
Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

...

> IOW, the go'el has a license, not a chiyuv. Is he better off using the
> license (uvi'arta hara'ah miqirbekha) or is he better off not taking
> revenge?

Actually, there's a mahlokes between R. Yosi Hagelili and R. Akiva
(Makos 12a) whether the Goel Ha'Dam has a Reshus or a Mizvah, although
Rambam does rule that it's merely a Reshus (Rozeah 5:10).

> Micha Berger             A person must be very patient

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 11:41:33 -0700 Steven J Scher <sjsc...@eiu.edu> 
wrote:
>R'YG:
>> We are not saying that He would do so "simply to convince people 
of His
>> existence"; on the contrary, I am saying that as long as He can 
be
>> expected to act according to the normal ways in which we are 
told He
>> acts, i.e. as a Shomai'a Tefillah, we ought to be able to 
measure and
>> quantify this effect. ...
>
>Yes, He's a Shmoai'a Tefillah, but He is also an Ohavei Mishpat 
v'Tzedek. 
>HaShem hears all prayers, but doesn't necessarily act on all of 
them ...
>So, what would be His reasoning for 
>treating those patients who are not deserving, but just happened 
to be 
>prayed for as part of our study, better than those who are more 
deserving, 
>but were randomly assigned into the non-prayer group?
>
>The only thing that I could think of is that He would do it 
>because He wants to provide us evidence of His existence -- but it 
seems like 
>(a) that's not really a good enough reason to otherwise circumvent 
His 
>middah of justice, and (b) He has other, much more convincing ways 
at His 
>disposal to provide this evidence if He really wanted.

Another possibility is that He would arrange so that the supposedly 
random groups are not random.  The scientists can pick any random 
number generator they like, HKB"H can always "game" the system so 
that the prayed-for group contains the people he wishes to give a 
better outcome to.

OTOH, it is important to note that while a strong positive 
correlation would be plausible piece of evidence for existence 
(although it could also be a statistical anomaly or the result of a 
methodological error, the latter being very common in this type of 
study), a negative result (no difference between the samples) would 
not be evidence for anything, really.  HKB"H could simple choose 
not to reveal Himself in this way.

In fact, when I hear studies of this sort showing positive results, 
I tend to be skeptical, not because I don't believe HKB"H exists, 
chv"sh, but because I don't believe He runs the world in a way such 
that this kind of test can work.

--
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu

On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:59:10 -0500
David Riceman <drice...@att.net> wrote:

> My son and I are studying the mishnayos of Bava Kama, and we're on the 
> mishna which says that someone who burns a neighbor's haystack on 
> Shabbos is exempt from repayment because he has committed a capital 
> crime.  My son asked whether this applies nowadays, when we don't 
> adjudicate capital crimes.  Any ideas/sources?

Maharalbah [0] invokes KLBM in an actual case that occurred in his era
involving someone who tore someone else's Siddur on Shabbos.

[0] Resp. 89. available at
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1199&;pgnum=86&hilite=
cited by Pis'hei Hoshen Nezikin Ch. 10 n. 113)

> David Riceman

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

On Tue, 02 Dec 2008 11:32:17 +0200
Daniel Eidensohn <yadmo...@012.net.il> wrote:

...

> Rav Moshe Sternbuch told me that a Jew who is killed because he is a Jew 
> has the status of a kadosh.

What is his source for this?  Is this grounded in any way in the
classic traditions on martyrdom?  I don't deny that people have asserted
this in the post-Holocaust era; my contention, as I have repeatedly
explained, is that this is a modern innovation.

> Daniel Eidensohn

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 14:01:51 -0700 Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> 
wrote:
>REED, as I already wrote, made it about choice -- choice of how to 
die,
>and how one accepts one's fate. This allows us to consider someone 
who
>died for being a Jew who didn't actually get a choice whether to 
live
>or die still as a qadosh.

Someone asked about the nafkah minah.  I am also confused by the 
technicality of this discussion.  Even if I take a strict approach 
and say that many people often identified as dying al kiddush 
HaShem didn't actually fulfill the mitzvah, does that make much 
difference?  Is our response to either R' Holtzberg or to a athiest 
communist Jew killed by the Nazis a function of how we pasken on 
the dinim of kiddush HaShem, or a larger evaluation of who they 
were and how they were killed?

--
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu



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