Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 271

Sat, 26 Jul 2008

• 1. Re: RSRH: Vows - Difference Between a Man and a Woman (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 2. Masei "The Ultimate Goal of the Ir Miklat" (Cantor Wolberg)
• 3. what G-d can't do (Eli Turkel)
• 4. length of the aron (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: length of the aron (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: length of the aron (Eli Turkel)
• 7. nes niglah (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Re: length of the aron (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: length of the aron (Alan Rubin)
• 10. Re: police misdeeds and trial evidence (Zev Sero)
• 11. extra legal pinishment (Eli Turkel)

I'd like to thank R' Yitzchok Levine for his quote from Rav Hirsch on this topic (Bamidbar 30:4), and to R' Micha Berger for expanding on it.

Upon first reading it, it seemed to answer all my questions very nicely,
except for one point. So then I went to look at Rav Hirsch's perush myself,
and I found my answers in his comments on the very next pasuk.

Namely, how does the daughter fit into all this? She does not yet have her
own home. How is the daughter different than a son? If the daughter's vows
should be subject to the father's review, then so too for the son. And if
the son's vows stand regardless of the father, then so too should the vows
of the daughter.

The answer may be in what RSRH wrote on 30:5, that these powers (of the
husband and father) are not all-encompassing. The husband cannot cancel any
vow his wife makes, but only those which interfere with the husband-wife
relationship. And here's the kicker: The father too, cannot cancel any of
his daughter's vows, but only those which would interfere with her
relationship to her future husband. All of this is irrelevant to the son,
who (for better or for worse) will be the husband of his own home, and can
make whatever vows he sees fit, without being subject to his father's
approval.

Akiva Miller

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This Torah portion describes the cities of refuge. A man who kills  
someone accidentally is exiled to an Ir Miklat. In addition to these  
accidental killers, a very distinguished group of people, the Leviyim,  
lived in those cities. They traveled throughout Israel, teaching and  
preaching. The Leviyim actually played an integral role in the  
killer's rehabilitation.

The sentence imposed on the killers was also very unique. It was not  
defined by time, but rather by an odd and puzzling circumstance. The  
killers would go free only when the Kohen Gadol died. The gemara in  
Makos tells us that the Kohen Gadol's family members were quite  
worried. They were not concerned that there would be an assassination  
plot against the Kohen Gadol's life. They were worried that the  
convicts would pray that the Kohen Gadol would die. In order to  
dissuade them, the mother of the Kohen Gadol would distribute food and  
clothing to the detainees to deter them from praying that her son die.

The whole thing sounds strange and weird. But in order to grasp the  
deeper meaning, it is important to understand that these cities of  
refuge were not jails, nor were they mere detention camps. They were  
environments in which reckless people were made to become aware that  
careless actions have serious ramifications. They were constantly  
under the influence of their neighbors, the Leviyim. They would  
observe them daven, learn, and teach others. They would, in essence,  
be exposed to sensitivity training, awareness, and care for their  
fellow beings.

The mission of the Kohen Gadol's mother was not just to just  
distribute food and clothing. It was to develop a bond with those  
people, whose carelessness cost a fellow human being's life. They  
sensed the love the Kohen Gadol's mother had for her son and hopefully  
realized how wrong and selfish it was for them to pray for anyone's  
death -- especially one who was a valuable and prominent member of  
society. They saw how a total stranger, despite her great esteem,  
would make sure that their needs in the city of refuge were cared for.  
This led to their rehabilitation and made them painfully aware of the  
grief they caused the family and friends of the person they  
accidentally killed.

After developing a positive awareness of life and a keen empathy for  
others, they would never pray for the death of anyone, even if it  
meant their own freedom. In fact, they may have offered their years  
for the merit of the Kohen Gadol -- the ultimate act of selflessness.

The Torah does not just punish without teaching and rehabilitating. It  
infuses a love for life and spirituality into former careless killers.  
Its goal is to mold a new person whose attitudes will cause him to be  
kinder, gentler, and most of all, a lot more careful.

rw
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<<The opposing view is that yes, He can make a five-sided triangle, or an
object that measures 2.5 amot long, but when put into a 20-amah wide room
doesn't take up any of those 20 amot.  According to this view, He can make
a rock so heavy that He can't lift it, and He can still lift it, because
He is not bound by the Law of Non-Contradiction.>>

According to all views he cannot make a 5 sided triangle or make 1+1=3.
These are definitions and have nothing to do with logic. A five sided
figure is defined
as a pentagon not a triangle. Two is defined as the number after 1 and
so the sum
(assuming standard arithmetic) os one and one is two.

However putting down 2 one inch rulers after each other and saying it
gives two inches
is a fact of the universe and is no longer a definition. In a thought
experiment the
two could combine to give less than 2 inches.

In short one must distinguish between mathematics which is conceptual and
physics which describes the world. G-d can change the rules of the universe but
he can't change a definition.

<<> Ralbag often explains away, and occasionally even rejects outright,
> statements of Hazal that he considers to contradict True Philosophy.
> See, e.g., Breishis [biur milos ha'parshah] 1:29 and Bamidbar 22:21.  I
> plan to discuss this in depth in a paper for Hakirah.

And for that very reason not everyone considers the Ralbag to be 100%
kosher.>>

In this case I think all rishonim agree that G-d cannot do anything
against logic.
It was only later kabbalists/chassidim that stressed G-d's omnipotence that
the idea emerged that G-d could perform acts against logic or laws of
the universe.

I would venture that this is connected to the idea that "most"
rishonim feel that
G-d does not change the rules to give reward and punishment in this world except
for special people. Everyone else is governed by the usual rules. The
kabbalists/chassidim
argued "that a leaf doesn't fall without G-d ordering it".  Again the kabbalists
stressed the powers of G-d in all circumstances while rishonim tended to accept
nature and G-d interfered with nature (which he established once) only when
necessary.

-- 
Eli Turkel

I don't suppose we'll ever have the opportunity to carry out the
experiment for real.>>

Why not?
We start building the next bet hamikdash right after tisha ba-av.
Accepting the view
that it is built by man - some carpenter will have to do the measurements

-- 
Eli Turkel

Eli Turkel wrote:
> I don't suppose we'll ever have the opportunity to carry out the
> experiment for real.>>
> 
> Why not?
> We start building the next bet hamikdash right after tisha ba-av.
> Accepting the view
> that it is built by man - some carpenter will have to do the measurements

1. The original aron is still wherever Yoshiahu Hamelech hid it.
2. Even if we have to build a new one, the carpenter will only measure
it, not the KhK where it is to be kept.  Meanwhile the person who builds
the KHK will measure that, but not the aron.  And the Kohen Gadol on YK
is unlikely to agree to do this experiment, and I'm not even sure he'd
be allowed to bring the ruler in - does "bezot yavo Aharon el hakodesh"
exclude anything else?  (The act of measuring on Yom Kippur wouldn't be
a problem, because ein shevut bamikdash.)

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

The gemara indicates that workers came into the KhK to do repairs.
Conceptually one could dream up something that would require measurements
of the width

Eli Turkel

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 1:49 PM, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:
> Eli Turkel wrote:
>>
>> I don't suppose we'll ever have the opportunity to carry out the
>> experiment for real.>>
>>
>> Why not?
>> We start building the next bet hamikdash right after tisha ba-av.
>> Accepting the view
>> that it is built by man - some carpenter will have to do the measurements
>
> 1. The original aron is still wherever Yoshiahu Hamelech hid it.
> 2. Even if we have to build a new one, the carpenter will only measure
> it, not the KhK where it is to be kept.  Meanwhile the person who builds
> the KHK will measure that, but not the aron.  And the Kohen Gadol on YK
> is unlikely to agree to do this experiment, and I'm not even sure he'd
> be allowed to bring the ruler in - does "bezot yavo Aharon el hakodesh"
> exclude anything else?  (The act of measuring on Yom Kippur wouldn't be
> a problem, because ein shevut bamikdash.)
>
> --
> Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
> zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
>                                                  - Clarence Thomas
>



-- 
Eli Turkel

> as mentioned in the article all rishonim seem to agree
> that G-d can't do things against logic or basic physics laws.

I always thought that G-d's violation of "basic physics laws" was the
very *definition* of a nes nigleh.>>

why?
G-d brought the wind to split Yam Suf.
I don't see anything in the 10 plagues that is inherently against the
laws of physics/biology
I don't even see why a talking donkey is physically impossible. Parrots "speak"

-- 
Eli Turkel

Eli Turkel wrote:
> The gemara indicates that workers came into the KhK to do repairs.
> Conceptually one could dream up something that would require measurements
> of the width

They were lowered in in boxes, facing the wall that they were to work on.
None of them would be in a position to do this measurement.  Even someone
who had to measure the width would be carrying a one-amah ruler, not a
20-amah one.  And we know what happens with a one-amah ruler.  The
question was what would happen with a 20-amah one, and I don't think we'll
ever know the answer.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

 > The gemara doesn't say.  I would *guess* that if you looked at the
 > aron then you would see that it starts at 8.75 and runs until 11.25,
 > but that if you then looked the space between it and the northern wall
 > you'd see that the northern edge was at the 10 mark, with all of its
 > length south of 10, while if you looked at the space to the south of
 > it you'd see that the southern edge was at the 10 mark and the whole
 > length was north of 10.
 > But that's just a guess.  I don't suppose we'll ever have the
 > opportunity to carry out the experiment for real.

Scanning along the length of the ruler this just does not work.

I guess we'll have to leave the Gemara schwehr.

Alan Rubin

Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 06:07:07 -0400
> Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:
> 
>> In any case, as I pointed out earlier, non-eidus evidence, including
>> women's testimony, is admissible in order to impeach witnesses.
> 
> You have said this several times; what is your source?

For one thing, the eidim for kidush hachodesh were examined, in part,
by comparing their testimony to Rabban Gamliel's chart; if they said
something that the chart showed was impossible, their testimony was
dismissed, even if their internal consistency was perfect.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

See Sanhedrin 46a "shomati shebeis-din makin ve'onshin shelo min haTorah ...
and see also Rmb"m Hilchos Sanhedrin 24:4-10 based on this gemara.
This seems to be the source for extra-legal (extra-halachic) powers of
beis-din. So I guess that if the times required it, and five women
testified that someone is a danger to society, beis-din could do what
they deemed necessary (not to set a precedent, but only as a horoas
shoa, as the Rmb"m states in halocha 4).>>

The Rosh notes with astonishment that in Spain that occasionally
imposed the death penalty.
Since no one had real semichah this was clearly extra-legal. I don't
think he mentions it
but I assume that once they were extra-legal they could use female witnesses


-- 
Eli Turkel


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