Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 94

Mon, 10 Mar 2008

• 1. Re: Avodah Post - Ma'aser Funds for Raffles (Michael Kopinsky)
• 2. Re: Hot Cheese for Shabbat Lunch (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 3. Re: efficacy of prayer (Liron Kopinsky)
• 4. Re: efficacy of prayer (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 5. efficacy of prayer (SBA)
• 6. Re: efficacy of prayer (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: efficacy of prayer (Michael Makovi)
• 8. Efficacy of Prayer (Cantor Wolberg)
• 9. Re: efficacy of prayer (Michael Makovi)
• 10. Re: O attend R wedding = kosher eidim? (Michael Makovi)
• 11. Unwrapping the second (or third Sefer Torah) (R Davidovich)
• 12. Mitzvot and sins cancel each other, or not (Michael Makovi)
• 13. Re: Mitzvot and sins cancel each other, or not (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 14. Re: Mitzvot and sins cancel each other, or not (David Riceman)
• 15. Re: Mitzvot and sins cancel each other, or not (Shayna Livia Korb)
• 16. Re: efficacy of prayer (Richard Wolpoe)

On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 9:51 PM, Joseph Sasson <sasson11@gmail.com> wrote:

>  ...For the purposes of this discussion I would like to assume that
> ma'aser kesafim is a hiyuv.  A general discussion on the nature of such
> obligation (if any) is not my intent.  My questions are as follows:
>
>
> 1.  Primarily, can one allocate ma'aser funds for such a project? If so,
> where do we draw the line in terms of percentages retained by the charity?
>

I don't think you can ask this question without involving the question of
whether ma'aser is a chiyuv.  According to some poskim who say it's a chiyuv
gamur, your question does not even start, since they hold ma'aser can only
go to aniyim, and your question involved a yeshiva.  If ma'aser is a minhag
be'alma, then lechorah the question of using ma'aser money for a raffle
ticket is a question of sociology (ie what is common practice), rather than
of sevarah.

So I don't think you can answer one question without addressing the other.

KT,
Michael
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> >R' Sholom Simon (on Areivim):
> > > And, nu?, where in the Gemara does it even say that we should have
> > > meat on Shabbos?
> > >
> > > (trick question)
MYG:
> >Chullin 84a. (I'm not sure what the trick is - it seems pretty
> >straightforward...)
R' SS: 
> Does Chullin give permission to eat a lot of meat, or is it mandating
> it?
<SNIP>

If I'm interpreting the Gemara correctly, it seems to indicate that for
health reasons one should eat meat once a week (based on one's particular
circumstances - Ayin Sham), and that because of Kavod Shabbos one should eat
that meat on Shabbos. So yes, the Gemara is saying that we should eat meat
on Shabbos.

KT,
MYG

> I am convinced that praying oneself is better but I need sources not
logic<

No sources, but it seems to me that you can't say one is "better" than the
other.

L'mashal, if you need something from Person A, you make no regular effort to
let them know that you need it, but decide to just send person A's best
friend to ask for it, person A will probably say "I don't think s/he really
needs it since they could have asked me for it themselves."
Similarly, if Person A has something you need and 100 other people also need
it, and you all fill out an application form for it, but you can ask person
A's best friend to put your application on the top of the pile, that will
obviously not hurt your cause.

Chodesh Sameach and Shabbat Shalom,
~Liron
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R' Eli Turkel asked:
> 1. My wife spoke this morning with a former terrorist victim
> (lost husband and 2 sons). She asked my wife that thursday
> morning there was a public prayer at the kotel with important
> rabbis. That night was the tragedy at yeshivat hakotel. What
> good is all these prayers? What do you answer this woman?

There simply are no good answers for her. Source: Pirkei Avos 4:19 and 4:23. (Please look it up. My translations would not do them justice.)

Akiva Miller

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From: "Eli Turkel" < >
My wife spoke this morning with a former terrorist victim (lost
husband and 2 sons). She asked my wife that thursday morning there was a
public prayer at the kotel with important rabbis. That night was the tragedy
at yeshivat hakotel. What good is all these prayers?
What do you answer this woman?
>>

Nebach. Chazal tell  us not to console mourners  when meiso mutel lefonov
(or something like that). The whole of klall Yisroel was in such a state
last Friday.

The only thing I could think of (besides the fact that nistorim darkei
Hashem and we really haven't got a clue) was what I have seen prepeated many
times ny the mother of terror victim Nachshon Wachsman HYD:

"...My husband's greatest concern when burying his son was that there would
be a crisis in faith. And so he asked Rabbi Elon to tell everyone that just
as father would always like to say "yes" to all of his children's requests,
but sometimes he had to say "no" though the child might not understand why,
so too our Father in Heaven heard our prayers, and though we don't
understand why, His answer was "no."

http://www.ou.org/yerushalayim/yomhazikaron/wachsman.htm

Remember being a child, and your father just yelled at you, and you
aren't quite clear what you did wrong, but then, when the scolding is
over, you need a hug just to know that everything is okay between you?

Tefillah in a time of troubles, is about reaching out to Hashem when you
feel alone. IMHO, it isn't an exception to "Al tehi ke'avadim hameshamshim
es harav al menas leqabeil peras".

So, to answer the woman's question in a way that is senstitive to her
pain: The efficacy of the prayer is in the reaching out to G-d itself.

Gut Voch!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is a glorious thing to be indifferent to
micha@aishdas.org        suffering, but only to one's own suffering.
http://www.aishdas.org                 -Robert Lynd, writer (1879-1949)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

> Two questions
>
>  1. My wife spoke this morning with a former terrorist victim (lost
>  husband and 2 sons).
>  She asked my wife that thursday morning there was a public prayer at the kotel
>  with important rabbis. That night was the tragedy at yeshivat hakotel.
>  What good is all these prayers?
>  What do you answer this woman?

It was Merkaz haRav, not Yeshivat haKotel, but anyway....

I really have no idea, but here's the best I could think of:

Perhaps G-d had some overwhelming purpose in this that no prayer could
overcome (i.e., if you pray for what's NOT good for you, even if you
think that it is good for you, I should hope that G-d would not answer
the prayer).

Perhaps fewer people got hurt than would have otherwise.

Perhaps it is because of some sin we have, that no amount of prayer is
strong enough to overcome.

Perhaps G-d, for some reason, put the prayer in the bank for later -
i.e., perhaps it has had some effect on the future, that we cannot see
yet. I recall in A Tzadik in Our Time, somewhere, it says something
about no prayer or tear going to waste, and that eventually, it will
bear fruit, even if we cannot see it. Either in that book or somewhere
else, there was a story about a woman who prayed for her Cantonist son
to return to Judaism - everyday she'd pour tears for hours over her
Tehillim. But to her dying day, he never returned to Torah. But, after
her death, when he went to pick up her belongings, he found the
swollen tear-stained book of Tehillin, and this sparked his teshuva.
So you never know.

>  2. People I know had an argument whether it is better to pray for oneself or
>  rather it is preferable to ask a tzaddik to pray.
>  I am convinced that praying oneself is better but I need sources not logic
>  --
>  Eli Turkel

Well, for an argument *against* what you say (sorry!), Rav Hirsch to
Avraham praying for Sodom and Gomorrah, and again to Avraham praying
for Avimelech (return his wife, for he is a navi, and he will pray for
you), says that a tzadik's prayers are effective because in effect, he
is saying, "G-d, You have deemed it proper that ploni go through kach
v'kach. But, have You deemed it proper that **I** suffer for the fact
that he is suffering?" A tzadik makes others' pain his own, and so G-d
cannot punish ploni without punishing (unjustifiably) the tzadik too.
I am reminded of the story of Reb Aryeh Levine (I think, but maybe
someone else) that he said to the doctor, "My wife's foot is hurting
*us*".

Mikha'el Makovi

What good is all these prayers?
What do you answer this woman?


The answer that would probably mean more to her than what you'd expect  
would be:

"If I were in your situation, I'm sure I'd be asking the same question."
This type of empathy would be more compassionate and caring than  
giving her a lesson in theology.

ri

> My wife spoke this morning with a former terrorist victim (lost
>  husband and 2 sons). She asked my wife that thursday morning there was a
>  public prayer at the kotel with important rabbis. That night was the tragedy
>  at yeshivat hakotel. What good is all these prayers?
>  What do you answer this woman?

At the Shabbat table at night, one person (a mother, btw) remarked
that it isn't difficult to see why Hashem chose these particular
people to lose their children - one mother, for example, said of her
16(?) year-old son, that it was a blessing to have know him for so
long, and now she's returned the trust to Hashem - rather like
Beruriah. All of the parents, she said, said things like this - mamash
"gam zu l'tova", and moreover, you can imagine what sorts of children
these were.

I was also extremely impressed by the eulogies of the rabbis:
from http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125491
"Rabbi Yerachmiel Weiss, head of the Merkaz high school, spoke next,
in a voice breaking with emotion and tears: "G-d is just, and His ways
are just... We have questions; but the questions are so difficult, so
difficult...  How is it possible to eulogize one Torah scholar on Rosh
Chodesh Adar?  But two? and three, and four, and five...??  Your ways
are so hidden, Master of the Universe!  ... In Adar, we increase joy -
look how much joy You gathered to Heaven!  They were in the midst of
studying Torah, such joy, such purity... We have been left with such a
hole... I just want to tell You, Master of the Universe, what great
people You took: Yehonadav - he gave [nadav, in Hebrew] so much; what
purity and simplicity... You took Yochai from us - he lives [chai] in
G-d, what Torah study he did; even while they were setting up for the
Purim party, he came to learn Torah... You took Segev Pniel of the
Avichayil family - what a family, and what valour [chayil] in Torah!
... You took Yehonatan [meaning "G-d gave"] - what prayer, what Torah,
what beauty...  You took our dear Avraham David - just two days ago I
had a long talk with him in his room - what knowledge he had, what
integrity, what music he gave us with his Torah reading... and the
youngest, Neriah - the candle of G-d, his light will be missing from
us..."

Mikha'el Makovi

From Areivim:

> The designation, a relatively recent custom, is to satisfy one opinion in Tosafos, that even
> the seeing by a non-kosher witness makes the testimony of all witnesses invalid.
> Lahalacha, it is only if one of the _testifying_ witnesses is pasul that the principle applies.
>
> EMT

Tosafot would seem to hold then that if one pasul witness invalidates
all the other kosher ones, kal vachomer one hundred pasul R witnesses
will invalidate two O witnesses who happen to be there.

Now, the objection to Tosafot (viz. only the testifying witnesses
count, regardless of who else is there): does the same work in
reverse? If
the testifying witnesses are pasul, but there are kosher potential
witnesses in the vicinity, do only the testifying witnesses count? If
so, we've got no problem with an O potential eid being in the vicinity
of the pasul R designated eidim.

It seems, as far as I can tell so far, that either way, an O can
attend an R wedding.

Mikha'el Makovi

In shul this Shabbos, I noticed that our excellent Baal Korei, who has a
mesora from some ancient German Baalei Kriah and Gabboyim, insisted that
after the Hagbah of the first sefer Torah, the second sefer Torah which was
on the Bimah not be uncovered until the first one was fully dressed.  And
the same insistence was applied to the third Sefer after the second one was
lifted.

Would anyone here know of a source for this hakpada?


Thank you
Raffy Davidovich

-- 
RD
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Was: Areivim

> R' Yitzchok Levine:
>
> > > Please see http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/musser%20haskel.pdf
>
>  While I'm sure that the author of the poem was L'sheim Shamayim, IMHO, the
>  poem contradicts some fundamentals of Yiddishkeit, such as "Ein HKBH
>  M'kapeiach S'char Kol Beryah," and the Mesillas Yeshrim that Mitzvos and
>  Aveiros don't cancel each other out.
>
>  KT,
>  MYG


But who says that Mesilat Yesharim is the only opinion here? The
Gemara says that tzedaka, for example, cancels out averot.

Mesilat Yesharim's logic is correct, that G-d's justice ensures He
never ignores neither averah nor mitzvah. But there are two possible
nafka minot:

1) Like MS, that they don't cancel out. You'll be individually
rewarded and punished for each and every mitzvah and averah. If you
gave $10 of tzedaka to a poor man, and later stole $10 from a poor
man, G-d will pat you on the head and turn right around and slap you,
or vice versa. Every single mitzvah and every single unrepented-for
sin, G-d will reward and punish as if the others never happened.

But there's another way we can take this:

2) For a rasha, G-d doesn't overlook a mitzvah and let it be
m'vatel-ed, and for a tzadik, G-d doesn't overlook a sin and let it be
m'vatel-ed. Now, they DO cancel out. BUT, they're not ignored. For
example, if I give $100,000,000 of tzedaka and steal $5, G-d will
reward me for $999,995 of tzedaka. What He will NOT do is say, "You're
a tzadik, so I'll overlook the tiny $5 theft and reward you for the
full $100,000,000 of tzedaka".

Mikha'el Makovi

MYG:
> >  While I'm sure that the author of the poem was L'sheim Shamayim,
> IMHO, the
> >  poem contradicts some fundamentals of Yiddishkeit, such as "Ein HKBH
> >  M'kapeiach S'char Kol Beryah," and the Mesillas Yeshrim that Mitzvos
> and
> >  Aveiros don't cancel each other out.

R' MM:
> But who says that Mesilat Yesharim is the only opinion here? The
> Gemara says that tzedaka, for example, cancels out averot.
<SNIP>

I was basing myself mainly on the Gemara, and brought the MY L'ravcha
D'milsa. In any case, can you provide a source that Tzedakah cancels out
Aveiros?

KT,
MYG

Michael Makovi wrote:
> The
> Gemara says that tzedaka, for example, cancels out averot.
>   
Where?

David Riceman

Do you mean in the gemara in Rosh Hashana? (16b - 4 things overturn a decree
- tzedaka, tzeaka, shinui shem, shinui maaseh)
Shayna

On Sun, Mar 9, 2008 at 5:39 PM, David Riceman <driceman@att.net> wrote:

> Michael Makovi wrote:
> > The
> > Gemara says that tzedaka, for example, cancels out averot.
> >
> Where?
>
> David Riceman
>
>
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On Sat, Mar 8, 2008 at 10:57 AM, SBA <sba@sba2.com> wrote:

>
>
> Nebach. Chazal tell  us not to console mourners  when meiso mutel lefonov
> (or something like that). The whole of klall Yisroel was in such a state
> last Friday.
>

FWIW, A former IDF soldier came to me on Friday and asked "Didyou hear the
news?"
I responded YES but I do not want to talk about it.
He then proceeded to regale me for the next 20 minutes...and I listened
because he was an elderly gentleman, but frankly I was too depressed over
that even and Rav Zev Segal's Tragic death to deal with the situation,, and
so I tuned out as best as I could.  Chazal's 3 days of silence makes sense
at times. One would have been enough for me.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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