Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 89

Tue, 01 May 2007

• 1. Metzora (Dov Kay)
• 2. fashion models and opera singers (M Cohen)
• 3. fashion models and opera singers (Chana Luntz)
• 4. Re: [Areivim] Fw: fashion models and opera singers (Harry Maryles)
• 5. Re: Fw: fashion models and opera singers (Samuel Svarc)
• 6. Re: Fw: fashion models and opera singers (from areivim) (saul mashbaum)
• 7. Mincha (Michael Elzufon)
• 8. Puzzling Tragum Yonosons... (SBA)
• 9. Matza on Pesach Sheni (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 10. Tznius (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 11. Re: When may Yidden drink??? (Rabbi Chaim Ingram)
• 12. Re: When may Yidden drink??? (SBA)
• 13. Modeh betorat Eruv (Zev Sero)

<R' Dov Kay asked:
<Why does the Torah shebichsav spend so much time spelling out the details
of tzora'as relative to other, more practically relevant areas of halacha
<(eg hilchos Shabbos)?

<<We can ask this about many things. For example the Torah describes in
excruciating detail the design of the mishkan and then repeats it for
the building of the mishkan. Considering that the whole mishkan is not
even l'doros there is a tremendous amount of the Torah Shebkisav
devoted to it. On the other hand take a mitzva we do every day,
tefillin, the Torah devotes basically 1 pasuk to it giving us no
details at all of what tefillin should be, look like, etc. These are
just 2 examples, there are many more. I would be interested to know if
any of the mefarshim had a principle explaining why certain mitzvos
the Torah goes into detail and why some not.>>

I did not refer to the Mishkan case, because this could be considered sui 
generis.  After all, it dominated the life of the b'nei dor hamidbar and 
might have been dealt with at length in the Torah because of its symbolic or 
mystical significance.

However, I find it hard to be believe that tzora'as was ever the most 
practically significant topic facing any generation, including the dor 
hamidbar.  It is, and I use the term without any value judgement, obscure.  
Of course, a learning a mishna in Negaim is just as valuable as learning a 
mishna in Shabbos or B'rachos.  But that does not explain why the Torah 
spends far more time on this area than other, more practically relevant 
ones.

Gut erev Shabbos
Dov Kay

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Hotmail is evolving - check out the new Windows Live Hotmail 
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R'n peters writes...
A former student of mine is a very successful budding opera singer. Although
she knows that Halacha does not permit kol isha in performance (even in the
most lenient piskei halacha that I'm aware of, at least) she has chosen to
continue singing...


as a limud zchus...

although this is probably more for Avodah, what actually is the issur for a
Jewish lady to sing in front of nJewish men (ie when l'fnei iver is not an
issue)?
daas yehudis?

I also wonder if a miyut of poskim might be matir based on the fact that
they are hearing her voice thru the mic/amplification system, and not her
'real voice'

sincerely,
Mordechai Cohen

ps. I did borrow (and read) your sefer Learning to Read Midrash from R'n
Ilana Sober.  thank you.

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Sigh, rejected from Areivim again on the grounds that it is more suited
to Avodah:

RSP writes:

> A former student of mine is a very successful budding opera
> singer.  Although she knows that halacha does not permit kol 
> isha in performance (even in the most lenient piskei halacha 
> that I'm aware of, at least) 

Such a heter must exist however - as there are too many reports of
gedolim in Germany (not to mention Boston) going to the opera (RMS -
this is your department is it not?).  The fundamental issur of kol isha
falls on the man, the women's obligation is only derivative, so if it is
mutar for a man to go to opera, it surely must be mutar for a woman to
sing in performance there.

Even if you held that it is indeed assur for a Jewish man to go to the
opera - I could see a possible heter if you held that such an issur was
noheg amongst Yisroel only (which would seem logical given that the
proof text is from Shir HaShirim).  Because assuming that there is no
issur on a non Jewish men, why should a Jewish women not be able to earn
a living performing for non Jewish men and women (knowing that no frum
Jewish man would be found in an opera house).  It seems to me that only
if one held that the issur on listening to kol isha was part of the
sheva mitzvos benei noach that one would have a clear cut reason to ban
this practice even if one sung in an opera company in chutz l'aretz.

This of course is assuming that the underlying issur is as you have
described it, that of kol isha.  If the underlying issue is lo yiye
kadesh, then that would seem to devolve primarily on the woman.  It
would still seem clear however, that if it is a mutar for a Jewish man
(and talmud chacham) to go to the opera, then this prohibition cannot be
operative.  And it does seem quite a stretch to say that singing in the
opera is equivalent to being a kadesh.

I know R' Getzel Ellinson at least, wants to learn much of the tznius
issurim from lo yireh bach ervas davar (RMB's heara notwithstanding that
is is odd that such things are being learnt from a pasuk that deals
fundamentally with latrines).  But the same issues arise - if a man can
go to opera, then it is clear there is no ervas davar involved, and even
if he can't, is singing in a non Jewish opera to be considered "bach"? 


> Kol tuv,
> Simi Peters

Shabbat Shalom

Chana

{Note: this was initially sent to Areivim. But I ws advised by the moderataion team to submit it to Avodah as it has suffiecent Torah content to warrant the wider readership here. So with that in mind, I submit it here. But I want to re-emphasize that my recollection may be inaccurate since it was over 40myears ago. - HM}
   
  --- Simi Peters <familyp2@actcom.net.il> wrote:

> A former student of mine is a very successful budding opera singer.
>  Although she knows that halacha does not permit kol isha in
> performance (even in the most lenient piskei halacha that I'm aware
> of, at least) she has chosen to continue singing.  Nonetheless, she
> is completely shomeret Shabbat and kashrut, davens daily, and tries
> to learn when she can.  She's a good girl (good-hearted and
> relatively tznua, at least in terms of the world she inhabits) and
> her observance of mitzvot has protected her from the worst excesses
> of her professional setting.   Does that make her frum?  I guess
> the Ribono shel olam will figure that out for Himself.

It's been over forty years so I may be in error about this. 

But IIRC when Fiddler on the Roof first came to the Chicago stage
(the play, not the movie), Arie Crown Hebrew Day School used it as a
fund raiser. Of course the subjet of Kol Isha came up. I can't say
this for sure but I kind of remember that there was a Heter given by
RAS (It was about 1966 so as I indicated my memory may be off.) 

I believe the Heter was based on the fact that the faces of the women
in the play could not be seen from the seats that were being sold by
ACHDS and the sound heard was that of a microphone reproduction and
not their actual voices. If that's true, it may be possible for this
talented young lady to pursue a career in opera without violating
Halacha.

HM



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Moved from Areivim as per the request of the moderators.


>From: "Mike Miller" <areivim@mikeage.net>
>Subject: Re: [Areivim] Fw: fashion models and opera singers
>
>Of course they're wrong; we _can_ judge the actions. In the case of 
>tinok shenishbah, what we cannot judge is how guilty (and liable) they 
>are.

Of course one can. In certain aveiros (such as shabbos) they aren't liable,
in certain aveiros (such as murder) they are liable.

>The other point I was making is that perhaps it would be better for us 
>to say "their behavior is wrong" or "their behavior appears wrong."
>Why do we need to go the extra step?

Because not judging reveals an ambivalence to the action.

R' Sholom Schwadron used to say over a true story, as follows. One day his
wife rushed into the house and told him that a kid had fallen and cut his
head. R' Sholom grabbed a towel and ran outside to the kid (a neighbor's
son). He pressed the towel to the kid's head and started running up the hill
to a doctor. The kid's grandmother was walking down the hill and seeing R'
Sholom running with the kid, she figured it must be R' Sholom's son, so she
called out, "R' Sholom, he'll be all right! Don't worry!" As R' Sholom came
closer she saw that the kid wasn't a Schwadron, so she said, "Oy! He should
have a refuah shleimah!" As R' Sholom sprinted past her and she saw that the
kid was *her* grandson, she shrieked, "YANKEL!!!"

R' Sholom used to say, when it's your Yankel, then you're not ambivalent.
When shabbos means as much to you as your bank account, you shriek. When
someone rips you off, you're not ambivalent about it; you say, "That person,
he's a ganef!". When someone rips off the Ribona Shel Olam, it's the same
thing... if it's your Yankel. 

>If we have a valid reason for judging them (l'tov or l'ra), then of 
>course, as RMSS points out, we have many criteria to use, and in some 
>cases, we MUST judge. If, however, we don't (is anyone seriously 
>thinking of eating at (C)hav[ai] Mond's house? Is anyone inviting her 
>to be a spokeswoman for their organization)?) then why do we need to?
>
>Once we can answer the "why," then I think we can properly judge the 
>"what."

Well, let's start with a possuk in Mishlei, "Yiras Hashem sinas rah".
Pesachim 113b.

>Side note: one of the people in our building recently approached me to 
>ask about another tenant. The first individual (let's call him O) 
>wanted to make a private eruv for the building, but had some concerns 
>about whether another individual (let's call him A) was shomer shabbos. 
>I told him that I don't know, I know that A considers himself shomer 
>shabbos, even though there are some things he does that I wouldn't do, 
>but I believe he's in a category of "Omer Mutar."

So he's a shomer shabbos. Judge him accordingly.

>Since I
>have no relevant questions regarding A's Kashrus, etc., I've never 
>really considered the issue -- why bother?

For the same reason that people are concerned about their bottom line, and
check their stock portfolios. For the same reason that people are
'm'mashmesh b'kiseih' on a constant basis. This is what interests them, it's
their Yankel. Someone who cares about Hashem has a drive to know, it burns
in him. I can't say it better then the Mesillas Yeshorim. In perek yud tes,
anaf gimmel. I'll quote just a little, but learn the whole thing, it's
worthwhile. "... V'b'medrash Eicha omru: "Hoyoh sorim k'ayolim" Mah ayolim
hallolu bishas shrov hofchim p'neiheim alu tachas alu, kein hoyu g'dolie
Yisroel ro'im d'var aveira v'hofchim p'neiheim m'meinu. Omar l'heim Hakodesh
Boroch Hu: Tovei hashu v'ani ei'eisah l'heim kein (by the Churban)! V'zeh
poshut, ki mi sh'ohav eis chaiveiro, iy efsher lo lisbol shyirei makim es
chaveiro oh m'charfim oy'soy, v'bvaday shyeitzay l'ezroyso; gam mi sh'oheiv
sh'mo yisborach, lo yuchal lisbol v'liros sh'yichal'lu oy'soy, chas
v'sholom, v'shyaviru al mitzvosov... lo yichlu l'hisapek v'lhachrish...
v'omar: "Ohaiva Hashem, sinu rah" (Tehillim 97:10)

>I also don't have the
>situations in my personal life that A has concluded that his actions 
>are mutar, so I haven't really looked into the idea. For O, who needs 
>to know if he's mechalel shabbos or not, there is a valid question, and 
>something that he needs to be examine (delicately, of course).
>Nevertheless, I assume his conclusions, as with those of lashon hara, 
>should be that of the type that O needs to be wary of A (or not), 
>rather than declaring A to be a Rasha, etc. [in this case, A keeps 
>Kosher, sends his children to religious schools, has a wife who covers 
>(most of) her hair, etc), just for some general background].

How could some one like this be a rasha? Shomer shabbos, keeps kashrus, etc?
One doesn't need to crawl after people to see if they do aveiros. At the
most, it seems you have a question about him, he could be a choteih. We're
not discussing if we should be an Inquisition, but rather one shouldn't
withhold judgment on what he sees.

KT,
MSS

I can't recall seeing the following explanation of the mishna anywhere else. If anyone knows of someone else who says the following, I'd appreciate his pointing it out on this forum.
The mishna says "V'hevi dan et kol haadam l'kaf zchut". This is usually taken to mean "Judge everyone favorably." However, one may inquire why instead of the word "adam" (cf "Eizehu chacham? Halomed mikol adam"). , the mishna writes "haadam".  It is possible to say that when considering our relation to someone, and evaluating his actions, one should take into consideration the totality of his actions ("kol haadam", all of the person), and thus reach a favorable conclusion. 
Indeed Beit Din, when judging someone, must look only at the case at hand; other actions of the defendent are strictly not to be taken into account in the court's decision. However, when *we* see our "less frum" neighbors doing something we deem improper, we should try to consider the other zchuyot that person has, the mitzvot that he does do with care, the "kol haadam", and thus judge him l'kaf zchut.
Saul Mashbaum
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R' Galsaba asked
<What it the Halacha about davening Mincha after Plag Mincha, and then
Arvit before Tzeit <Kochavim specially on Fridays during daylight
saving time?
[MJE] R' Marty Bluke answered
This called Tartei d'sasrei and is generally frowned upon by the
poskim. The Mishna Berura paskens that on erev shabbos you can be
mekil if it is difficult.

However, there is another lesser know issue with doing this.

There is a din that you are not allowed to start a meal 1/2 hour
before the time of krias shema which is tzeis hakochavim. tzeis
hakochavim is approximately a 1/2 hour after sunset (according to the
Gra), so you cannot start a meal after sunset. During the week most
people are mekil about this halacha and rely upon the fact that they
daven maariv with a set minyan every night (e.g. 8 or 9PM), however
Friday night this doesn't apply as you already davened maariv early.

[MJE] There is another heter that people rely on during the week and that is to ask someone to remind them to daven ma'ariv.  Why would not asking someone to remind to say kriath shema work here?

2 Targum Yonosons that I could do with some help in understanding.

1) Acharei (16:21) on "Beyad Ish Iti" it translates "Beyad gevar di 
     mezamen min ishtakad".
     Is there any source or reason (why) this person was arranged 
     a year ago?
 

2) Kedoshim (19:24): "Ubashono Horevi'is yihyeh kol Piryo kodesh 
     hilulim LaHashem" TY adds: "...misperak min kahano".

      How do Kohanim come into this?

SBA 

Pesach Sheni is this week, on Wednesday. The Sefer Hatodaah (as 
translated by RnTK's father, Rav Bulman zt"l) writes: "Some have the 
custom of eating some left-over matzah from Pesach, as a memorial to 
the Pesach sacrifice which was eaten together with matzot."

Does anyone know, according to this minhag, when would the matza be 
eaten? On Wednesday afternoon, corresponding to when the Pesach Sheni 
is shechted, or on Wednesday night, corresponding to when the Pesach 
Sheni is eaten?

Thanks!
Akiva Miller

R'n Kayza Zajac, on Areivim:
*I know of at least two rabbonim who have said that for a skirt to be
*realistically proper (ie for a normal person rather than a statue), the
*skirt needs to fall at least 2 inches below the knee - not the MIDDLE of
*the knee, but the bottom of the knee, and a bit more is better.  That's
*getting to mid-calf, which you just don't see much of.  I can tell you
*from experience that unless you get at least that length, the knees DO
*show.    I see it all the time.


Were a woman to cover herself to the middle of the knee, and ensure that her
skirt does not ride up, assuming there are no other social mores that
require her to cover more, and assuming that Shok does not the include the
calves, has she satisfied the Ikkar HaDin? (In other words, is a woman
Mechuyeves to cover the bottom half of the knee Mei'ikkar Hadin?)

KT,
MYG 

The Rebbe undoubtedly meant it as a derush.

In another context, the Debreciner Rav, writes: "...There is no rabbi 
whoever he may be who can undertake on his own to issue new decrees 
unilaterally"

No halacha exists that restricts the consumption of wine to the occasions 
cited below.

rchi


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "SBA" <areivim@sba2.com>
To: "avodah" <avodah@lists.aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 1:28 AM
Subject: When may Yidden drink???


> Nice vort from the Rebbe Reb Hershel Zidichoyver zt'l that I heard tonight
> at a Shiur.
>
> In Parshas Shemini (10:9) "Yayin vesheichor al tesht..." - one should not
> drink wine,    except for -
>
> "Ato uvonecho itoch" - when you sit at the seder with your children,
> ''bevoyachem el Ohel Moyed" - when you come together at the Rebbe's,
> "velo somusu" - at a Seudas Hodo'eh,
> "Chukas Oylom" - at a Bris (ie, Veyamideho leYaakov lechok leYisroel Bris 
> Olom),
> "Ledoroyseichem" - at weddings.
> "Ulehavdil bein hakodesh uvein hachol" - refers to Kiddush and Havdolo,
> "Uvein hatomei uvein hatohor" - on Purim (Haman and Mordechai),
> "Ulehoros es Bnei Yisroel eis kol hachukim asher dibeir Hashem" - at a 
> Siyum Mesechteh.
>
> SBA
>
> 

>> Nice vort from the Rebbe Reb Hershel Zidichoyver zt'l that I heard 
>> tonight
>> at a Shiur.
>> In Parshas Shemini (10:9) "Yayin vesheichor al tesht..." - one should not
>> drink wine,    except for ->>
>> "Ato uvonecho itoch" - when you sit at the seder with your children,
>> ''bevoyachem el Ohel Moyed" - when you come together at the Rebbe's,
>> "velo somusu" - at a Seudas Hodo'eh,
>> "Chukas Oylom" - at a Bris (ie, Veyamideho leYaakov lechok leYisroel Bris 
>> Olom),     >> "Ledoroyseichem" - at weddings.
>> "Ulehavdil bein hakodesh uvein hachol" - refers to Kiddush and Havdolo,
>> "Uvein hatomei uvein hatohor" - on Purim (Haman and Mordechai),
>> "Ulehoros es Bnei Yisroel eis kol hachukim asher dibeir Hashem" - at a 
>> Siyum Mesechteh.

====
From: "Rabbi Chaim Ingram" <judaim@bigpond.net.au>
> The Rebbe undoubtedly meant it as a derush.
> In another context, the Debreciner Rav, writes: "...There is no rabbi 
> whoever he may be who can undertake on his own to issue new decrees 
> unilaterally"
> No halacha exists that restricts the consumption of wine to the occasions 
> cited below.

Of course. In fact drinking wine lesimchas YT is lechoreh missing (unless
we add it to "Ato uvonecho itoch" or "Ulehavdil bein hakodesh uvein hachol"

SBA 

On Areivim, Mike Miller wrote:

> Side note: one of the people in our building recently approached me to
> ask about another tenant. The first individual (let's call him O)
> wanted to make a private eruv for the building, but had some concerns
> about whether another individual (let's call him A) was shomer
> shabbos. I told him that I don't know, I know that A considers himself
> shomer shabbos, even though there are some things he does that I
> wouldn't do, but I believe he's in a category of "Omer Mutar."

Why is it relevant whether he's shomer shabbos?  Surely the relevant
criterion is "modeh betorat eruv", which can easily be tested by asking
him to join in the eruv.  If he agrees, you're OK, and if refuses, then
you know you have a problem.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                      	                          - Clarence Thomas



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