Avodah Mailing List

Volume 17 : Number 016

Friday, April 21 2006

• Re: Bracha over pizza (was Re: mezonos bread)
• Re: Bracha on Pizza (was: Mezonot Bread)
• Re: V'imru Amen in shmoneh esrei
• "Yirei Hashem" in Hallel--Who Are They?
• Re: Tfillin/shatz
• seder
• Re: seder
• Re: Women and Hallel during the Seder
• Re: Tfillin/shatz
• Re: Bracha on Pizza (was: Mezonot Bread)
• Re: kashrut for Pesach
• korban pesach

R' Jonathan Baker wrote <<< It's not just the Taz. The Mechaber in
168:7 says explicitly that we are meikil - any of the opinions he quotes
(contained sweets, made from sweets, made as dry crackers/wafers...),
are reason enough to declare it PHB. >>>

Pizza will fall into those categories ONLY if the dough was made with
fruit juice and not with water.

If the dough was made with water, then the Mechaber will NOT consider
pizza to be Pas Habaa BKisnin, because the cheese is not a sweet. Mechaber
168:7 does not apply to pizza. Rather it is Mechaber 168:17 which applies
to pizza -- "A pashtida baked in an oven with meat or fish or cheese is
Hamotzi and Birkas HaMazon."

Pasken like the Taz if you want, but please don't distort the Mechaber's
view.

Akiva Miller

On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 12:22:32AM +0200, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
:> I was told by my rebbe to follow the AhS over the MB. Many of my friends
:> left Ner or Chaim Berlin with similar advice. So I question the CC being
:> poseiq acharon, or whether one exists today....

: Igros Moshe(OH V #13.9 page 26): "However concerning actual halacha
: even though there is reason to prohibit - which is my inclination -
: nevertheless someone who want to be lenient since it seems that is how
: the Mishna Berura has decided - can rely on him. That is because he is
: Maran of the recent times concerning matters of Orech Chaim."

IOW, he doesn't call the CC poseiq acharon, since RMF himself is
disagreeing with him. Rather, as "maran", he is certainly an "al mi
lismoch".

I therefore read your citation as supporting my point.

:-)||ii!
-mi

On Wed, Apr 12, 2006 at 11:10:18AM +0200, D&E-H Bannett wrote:
: As the oseh shalom ... v'imru amen was not in the siddur in the times of
: the rishonim there is no question...

Agreed. It wouldn't make sense, since (as already noted) "ve'imru amein"
is a standard comment made by the chazan to instruct the qahal. And
"ve'imru" implies "amein" as a response. OTOH, "venomar" means the chazan
plans on saying it too -- which would make more sense for "amein" as a
coda. So first, the language isn't one of a coda.

But in "E-lokai netzor", which is only said beyichidus? One would also
be shifting a normal instruction to the qahal, to basar vadam, into a
dialogue with neighboring mal'achim. Possible, but IMHO implausible.

...
: Amen as an ending was used at the end of sections of prayer. Among
: Ashkenazim, except for boneh Yerushalayim in birkat hamazon, they have
: died out. Sefaradim have preserved some...

I thought only for the conclusion of strings of berakhos hasemuchot
lechavertot.

:-)||ii!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 4th day
micha@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Chesed: When is Chesed an
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           imposition on others?

From: "Zvi Lampel" <>
> Hallel quotes three passages from two chapters of Tehillim with the same
> progression of Yisroel, Beis Aharon, and Yirei Hashem:
> .... But also interesting is the issue of just who are the "Yirei Hashem"
> he is referring to?

> ..One may be surprised to learn that according to Rashi on Tehillim 115
> and 135 (and Metsudos includes 118 as well) the reference is to geirim;
> and similarly, the Ibn Ezra on Tehillim 115, 118 and 135 (as well as
> another reference in Tehillim 22:24) takes the "Yirei Hashem" that Dovid
> Hamelech is referring to as gentiles!

Boruch shekivanto...

Here is repost of vintage Avodah..

Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 17:52:11 +1000
From: "SBA" <sba@iprimus.com.au>
Subject: Yirei Hashem Bitchu baHashem

Stam interesting...

Tehillim 115 (Hallel): "Yirei Hashem" (Bitchu baHashem):-

Rashi: Elu Hageirim
Metzudas Dovid: Hemoh Chassidei Umoys Ho'oylom
Redak: Hem hachachomim shehem misboddedim b'veis Hashem lilmod
 --

On "Hashem Zechoronu" - the Even Ezra:

Omar Reb Moshe, ki 'zechoroni' - haz'chorim shelonu [!],
v'yevorech es beis yisroel' - hanekeivos...

The EE adds 'v'ein zeh nochoyn...'

 - ayin shom

A gitten Moyed
SBA 

> IIRC in previous gilgulim we've discussed the minhag of the shatz not
> taking off tfillin to say hallel on chol hamoed (brought down in the ezrat
> torah luach) the usual reason given is tircha dtzibura. Does anyone know
> if this was/is the practice even in a minyan where all the participants
> wore tfillin? If so, when did the participants take off their tfillin
> (and why then)?

Yes, it is the practice. The kahal removes their t'fillin right after
k'dusha. I assume that the reason is that they be off for Hallel, whose
saying represents the mo'ed aspect of the day, without creating a hefsek
between chazaras hashatz and Hallel.

EMT

 

Thnaks to RYGB for his post on different sedorim. I didn't understand the
chumrah of waiting 2 hours for every possible position. Does R. Steinman
do this every motzei shabbat? The general tendency is to make seder
early so the children dont sleep.

The article reminds of the famous story of someone who visited Volozhin
and spent the first seder at ther Bet Halevi where the entire seder was
attention to every chmurah and afterwards R. YB Soloveitchik be,oaned
that they probably weren't yotzeh. The second seder was by the Netziv
where the emphasis was on enjoying the seder and aftrewards the Netziv
remarked that he was sure that G-d also enjoyed the seder. The conclusion
was that there has always been two ways of addressing Yiddishkeit through
fear or through love.

Enclosed is a dvar Torah from the Kollel Iyun Hadaf on Taanit 23

(b) The Gemara (25B) tells us that Rebbi Eliezer and Rebbi Akiva both
prayed for rain, but Rebbi Akiva's prayers were answered and Rebbi
Eliezer's prayers were not answered. A Bas Kol issued forth and declared
that the reason Rebbi Akiva's prayers were answered is not because he
is greater than Rebbi Eliezer, but because he is "Ma'avir Al Midosav" --
he is forgiving of insult.

What does the Gemara mean that Rebbi Akiva was not greater than Rebbi
Eliezer? If he was "Ma'avir Al Midosav" while Rebbi Eliezer was not,
that should make him greater!

The answer, explains *HAGAON RAV YISRAEL SALANTER* (Or Yisrael #28), is
that there are two different approaches to the service of Hashem. The
attribute of Rebbi Eliezer was to be strict to uphold and protect the
honor of Torah. This was like the attribute of Shamai (his mentor,
Tosfos Shabbos 130b), who was known to be strict in that sense (Shabbos
31a). Rebbi Akiva, a student of the house of Hillel, mastered a different
attribute -- that of humility and forgiving insult, the attribute of
Hillel (ibid.). Both are equally valid approaches in serving Hashem,
and therefore one cannot be called "greater" than the other. Their
difference in approach was a Halachic argument like any other. Although
in this case the Halachah was decided in favor of Hillel (Shabbos 30b),
it in no way belittles the Avodas Hashem of Shamai and his followers,
to whom the ruling did not yet apply.

If both approaches are equally important, then why was Rebbi Akiva
answered and not Rebbi Eliezer? The answer is that when Davening for
Rachamim (to have the rains fall), the person whose attribute is that of
Rachamim will be answered, measure for measure, because it is Rachamim
which is needed at such a time.

Rav Yisrael Salanter's approach may be used to explain our Gemara as well.
Aba Chilkiyah's wife was answered first because her attribute was that
of Rachamim, as was demonstrated by her prayers that the sinners not die,
but that they do Teshuvah. In response to her prayer, Hashem had Rachamim
on the people and sent rain. (M. Kornfeld)

--
Eli Turkel

On Tue, Apr 18, 2006 at 10:44:49AM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Enclosed is a dvar Torah from the Kollel Iyun Hadaf on Taanit 23
: (b) The Gemara (25B) tells us that Rebbi Eliezer and Rebbi Akiva both
: prayed for rain, but Rebbi Akiva's prayers were answered and Rebbi
: Eliezer's prayers were not answered...

I go in a similar direction in
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2006/01/maavir-al-midosav.shtml>
There was also a lema'aseh follow-up at
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2006/01/maavir-al-midosav-pragmatics.shtml>.

Both are based on the Friday night talk at our Shabbaton in Flatbush.
The first is closer to my notes, the second was more the va'ad's
conclusions.

:-)||ii!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 5th day
micha@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Chesed: What kinds of Chesed take
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       away my independence?

>> Having never been to a Seder where women recited Hallel or other portions
>> of the Haggadah noticeably aloud, I was wondering if this Hoq Ya'aqov is
>> common practice, or do others have greater participation by women. Does
>> it change if the women present are closely related to the men at the table
>> [according to the HY, seemingly not]?

R' Akiva Miller wrote:
> My guess is that whether the women do/don't sing Hallel at the Seder is
> closely related to whether the women do/don't sing Shalom Aleichem and
> other Zemiros on a typical Shabbos. At least, that's how it is in my home.

> Are there any among us where the women don't sing zemiros with the men
> but do sing Hallel at the Seder? Or where they do sing zemiros on Shabbos
> but refrain at the Seder?

Hallel on Pesah is a Hiyuv, even for women. Z'miros on Shabbos while nice,
is not obligatory, even for men. It is plausible that one could have no
issue with women singing Hallel, as they are under obligation and thus
may not be required to suppress their expression, as opposed to Z'miros
where no one "needs" to sing, and those who do may add value and meaning
to the Shabbos table, but at the same time it may be better not to sing
(following this line of reasoning) if it comes into conflict with issues
of Qol B'Isha.

Nevertheless, the MB does cite the HY as his source that women should
not sing Hallel with the men, no distinction is made for family. If there
are those who do not follow the MB and HY, why not? Furthermore, the HY
would compare women singing the Hallel to the gemara that seemingly refers
to women singing in a Beis HaMishteh, is that a strong parallel? And is
that the reason people may not be concerned with the HY in this case?

Jacob Farkas

RJR wrote:
> IIRC in previous gilgulim we've discussed the minhag of the shatz not
> taking off tfillin to say hallel on chol hamoed (brought down in the ezrat
> torah luach) the usual reason given is tircha dtzibura. Does anyone know
> if this was/is the practice even in a minyan where all the participants
> wore tfillin? If so, when did the participants take off their tfillin
> (and why then)?

We remove tefillin during the repetition, the shatz right before hallel.

BTW, one old, forgotten minhag was to keep the tefillin until the end,
whether on Rosh 'Hodesh or 'Hol haMo'ed.

Guter Mo'ed,
Arie Folger

R' Jacob Farkas wrote:
> Even if Shitas Taz is utterly unacceptable, the fact that
> the only venture gained by such a protest would be Netilas
> Yadayim, D'rabbanan, and Mutav Sheyiyu Shogegin.

I'd add benching to that list. Even if Al Hamichya works for bread on a d'Oraisa level, still, the quality of our benching is poor enough already, we can at at least say the words unabridged.

OTOH, I suppose it could be argued that four kavana-less brachos is even worse than one kavana-less bracha. Oy, meh haya lanu.

Akiva Miller

On 4/2/06, Eli Turkel <eliturkel@gmail.com> wrote:
> I just came from a shiur from the head of the rabbanut kashrut in Israel.
> He made several interesting comments
> As he is in charge of the kashrut for the chief rabbinate he was very
> careful not to answer any questions about individual products and/or
> rabbis. He referred that again to one's LOR with the caution that many
> LORs are not informed about kashrut issues since it involves not only
> halacha but many technical issues.

What kind of advice is that?  Go ask your LOR but he probably does not
know the answer.  How does that help?

Chag Sameach
Saul

I know the question is a week late, but what is our relationship
nowadays with Korban pesach? We obviously cannot bring it, as the
government does not allow us to even daven on har Habayit, let alone
bring a KP. The question is do we have an obligation to? I am familiar
with having heard that there are many rabbonim who hold we have a chiyuv
(it is not dependant on the Beis Hamikdash, just on the makom hamizbeach)
and therefore some people/rabbonim are rumored to leave Yerushalayim on
Erev pesach (so as to be patur because of Derech Rechoka). Do you know of
any specifiic person/Rav who leaves yerushalayim because of that? Does
he have to be out of Yerushalayim the whole day or just a certain part
of it? If the whole day, how does he get back home for Yom Tov?

Kolt uv,
Rafi

---------
Goldmeier
goldmeier@012.net.il
http://torahthoughts.blogspot.com
http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com

*********************


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