Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 457

Wednesday, March 22 2000

• Takanos Redux
• Re: Diyyuk Redux
• Re: Purim Alert
• RE: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at leastthe same s...
• Re: Takanos Redux
• Golus mentality
• Re: Takanos Redux
• Re: Takanos Redux
• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least the same standard
• Pope's visit-barf alert
• Re: berachah at the seder
• Diyyuk Redux
• Re[2]: Diyyuk Redux
• Re: Avodah V4 #456
• Re: Avodah V4 #456
• Am Horatzus alert (was Burim)
• Re: wedding takanos
• Re: Takanos Redux
• Re:Parshas Tzav

On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:50:38 -0500 <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:

<<We are taught to dress up for Shabos even when we are in isolation. IOW
the protest is for OUR benefit to show OUR concern OUR senstivity,>>

	We dress up for Shabbos in isolation;  we can protest mistreatment of
Sudanese in isolation just as well.   You show the same sensitivity and
save a lot of time,  which was the commodity in scarce supply at the
beginning of this discussion.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:


> this particular case is an extrapolation from a pattern that seems
> well-established, that Minhagim in Frankfurt, KAJ, etc. have very old precdents
> and documentatoin, etc.



What kind of documentation, and where can I find it?



> My experience in other kehillos is that they are not as vigilant in preserving
> these fine points.


Why not?



> A prominent exception to this generality is re: kabblistic liturgy. SOME KAJ'ers
> tell me that brich shmey is omitted cause that is the ancient minhag, or iow it
> never was added in. 



It's not in the Italian siddur, either. Never was.



> My impression is that brich shmei, ana bekoach and a few
> others are omitted DAVKA following shabtai zvi.  There are many who agree with
> me on this, but no one has a clear-cut source yet.  IOW it is possible that all
> of ashkenez and Polan sued to say brich shmei before SZ, and davka in germany
> they stopped it, making this a NEWER minhag.



I don't think the Italians would have been as defensive about SZ as the
Germans seem to be. I believe it was never there.



> 
> Good Purim



Shushan Purim Same'ah!


---sam

For Carl and others who have Purim today...

1) Shabbas: Yom zeh leyisroel 1) Orah 2) v'simcho 
Purim: layehduim hayso 1) orah 2) v'simcha 3) v'sasson  4) vikar 

2) Because parshas amaleik follows Parshas Haman in Beshalach

3) Because at the end of the "contest" it says uvehikoveitz besullos sheinis, 
that after spending the evening with the king they were STILL besulos

4) Sue as in Sue Gates, because it says S'eu Sh'orim....

Good Shushan Purim

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Purim Alert 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    3/21/2000 4:40 PM


Questions:

1) How do we know Purim is twice as "happy" as Shabbas. (at least according to 
the Arizal)

2) How do we know Haman is from Amaleik?

3) How do we know that Achashveirosh was an impotent potentate?

4) What is Bill Gate's wife's name?

AA wrote (V4#454)
> (Neither do a lot of American Jews, either.)
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>This, I believe, is the heart of the problem. ("American Jew" vs. "A Jew
>living in America").

Farkert, I don't remember who I heard it from but he pointed out that:
Italian- American
African-American
Polish-American
American Jew

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

I am satisfied that if we simply point out a protest to what is going on *wrong*
in Bosnia or Khartoum, etc. that we have been yotzei our obligation.  The only 
danger I see is being insensitive and ignorant of other's suffering, I do not 
think we are required to hop on a plane like the late Roberto Clemente and 
become a hero/martyr!

The key point is to see those suffering as fellow bnei adam, and not to be 
callous as was Kayin towards Hevel.  It does not mean we can act on every cause,
that is not practical nor desirable. We need to divide the labor fairly and 
equitable and to take on those pet causes in which we can make a difference, 
(e.g. hatzalah.)

What is NOT acceptable to me is to say, hey who cares about yennem, did they 
protest the holocaust or Soviet Jewry. That attitude is a form of nekomo or 
netiro and counterproductive.

During the Gulf War, my shul asked me which cause to support?  I chose Magen 
David Adom because it most resembled the local Hatzalah, and I feared the 
possibility of damage from the scuds, which BH we had a revach v'hatzala and 
little damage was wrought. (OK the Lubavicher rebbe knew it was safe, but I was 
not on that madreigo <smile>) I realized we could not expect a congregation to 
support EVERY worthwhile cause, that we needed to take one focal cause and to 
run with that. 

No one can be expected to DO for every cause, but we can be at least supportive 
and sympathetic to others even if our hands are tied up on other projects.

That is part of veiwing things from a societal perspective.  A society is based 
upon dividing up tasks by expertise and not expecting each individual to be a 
kol bo.  Ideally, mutual respect and appreciation for the other guy's avodah 
should be a byproduct of such mutual interdependence.

If I choose to volunteer for the chevra kadishah, it does not mean I oppose 
hatzala because if is after all bad for business!  <smile>

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Takanos Redux 
Author:  Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> at tcpgate 
Date:    3/22/2000 9:33 AM


On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 08:50:38 -0500 <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:

<<We are taught to dress up for Shabos even when we are in isolation. IOW 
the protest is for OUR benefit to show OUR concern OUR senstivity,>>

	We dress up for Shabbos in isolation;  we can protest mistreatment of 
Sudanese in isolation just as well.   You show the same sensitivity and 
save a lot of time,  which was the commodity in scarce supply at the 
beginning of this discussion.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

The term "golus mentality" has been thrown around quite a bit lately. 
Mostly, it seems, as in "Who has it worse".
As, b'avonoseinu harabim, Moshiach has not yet arrived I'd assume 
that there *is* a golus mentality that is right and proper.
Perhaps Sherer, Atwood, Finch etc could explain what they mean?

kol tuv
Sender Baruch

And I suspect David's point is:

If WE behave "dumb", the goyim will be led to conclude that the Torah is dumb, 
too!

Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

The Torah says goyim will consider Jews smart when they keep the Torah. 
Maybe we should focus a bit more on that if appearing smart to the goyim 
is important.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

My point is that not being aware of the fine points of Thoreau's
philosophy is not how the Torah defines dumb.  The Torah's definition
should be fine for us.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com


On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 10:10:09 -0500 <richard_wolpoe@ibi.com> writes:
> And I suspect David's point is:
> 
> If WE behave "dumb", the goyim will be led to conclude that the 
> Torah is dumb, 
> too!
> 
> Richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
> 
> 
> ______________________________ Reply Separator 
> _________________________________
> 
> The Torah says goyim will consider Jews smart when they keep the 
> Torah. 
> Maybe we should focus a bit more on that if appearing smart to the 
> goyim 
> is important.
> 
> Gershon
> gershon.dubin@juno.com
> 
> 

Carl:

We are on different wavelengths.

You repeatedly condewmen the Pope for doing nothing, while stating that the 
Jews are to busy with their own causes to do anything.

Sort of like the guy who walks into a book store and says: I want a book on 
chutzpah and I want you to pay for it.

>>I am appalled at people like you and Finch who are willing to
defend the virulently anti-Semitic Pope Pius. What a golus
mentality!

I am not defending him, chalila, I am simply trying to understand why we ask 
him to do things we don’t do, like support other causes.

>>
What wealth? We don't have any wealth to share! What are you suggesting? 
That I tell my neighbor who can't put a chicken on the table for Shabbos 
that I'm too busy protesting the treatment of women in Afghanistan to make 
sure his kids have something to eat? Whom have we ever schnorred from who is 
not a Jew except for asking the leaders in the countries to which we have 
been exiled to protect us just as they do their own citizenry?
<<

Fine.  You can tyna aniyei ircha kodmim all you want.  But don’t expect the 
nations in the golus to help out if you use that as your mantra.  That was 
my point.

>>We take care of our own first. Then we can worry about others.

Funny, I think Pope Pius said the same thing.  I am the father of a billion 
Catholics.  Way too busy to help some Jews.

Carl, be careful what you wish for.

/af




>From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
>Reply-To: cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
>To: "aviva fee" <aviva613@hotmail.com>, avodah@aishdas.org
>Subject: Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least 
>the same standard
>Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 12:28:51 +0200
>
>On 20 Mar 00, at 22:22, aviva fee wrote:
>
> > Your repeatedly state reasons why the Pope should have done more,
> > while simultaneously stating that the Jews are powerless and stating
> > “I am going to worry about them before I worry about Sudan or
> > Afghanistan or Bosnia or anyplace else, which is not my people and
> > where my potential impact is minimal”.  You can not have it both ways.
> >  If we tyna that the Pope should do more, then we as a nation, no
> > matter how powerless must do our hishtadlus.  If not, we are all
> > hypocrites.
>
>No, we are not. We are acknowledging reality. We are a small
>nation that has been persecuted throughout the ages. No one of us
>has the individual wherewithal to make an impact on a large
>number of people. The Pope, lehavdil, clearly does. On the Pope's
>say so, millions of people will act or not act. When the Pope says
>"jump," R"L even many Jews ask "how high?" If you don't believe
>that, I can only tell you that I may not be able to get to work on
>Thursday because the Pope is going to be in town. Hundreds of
>Israeli police are scheduled to be mechalel Shabbos this week,
>R"L, because the Pope is holding masses in the north on
>Shabbos. I don't know of any Jews, or any groups of Jews, who
>can have that kind of impact on so many people today.
>
>Lehavdil elef alfei havdolos, when the Satmar Rov was here a
>couple of years ago, they barely closed one main street for him on
>Shabbos. I was able to drive right by the Duchinsky shul while he
>was there. How many people who are not fruhm listen to a word
>said by the Gdolim? R"L there is no comparison.
>
>All Pope Pius (what an ironic name!) had to do was to get up in St.
>Peter's Square and make one little speech saying that Catholics
>should not align themselves with the Nazis Yimach Shmom. It
>would have taken Italy out of the Axis and calmed the Polish
>beasts. At a minimum. Instead the Church continued to accuse
>Jews of deicide....
>
>If every Rov in the world got up and said genocide in Sudan is
>terrible, it would have no impact whatsoever on whatever is going
>on there. It might get Jews to donate money there, but that would
>likely come at the expense of many of our own people who are
>starving in the streets. Just like the money that the Federations in
>the US are so gleefully donating to "Palestinian causes" come at
>the expense of Jews (both locally and in Israel) who formerly
>benefitted from Federation moneys. As far as I am concerned, that
>is not worth the effort.
>
> > Your posts are seemingly full of chutzpah.
>
>I am appalled at people like you and Finch who are willing to
>defend the virulently anti-Semitic Pope Pius. What a golus
>mentality!
>
> > Carl Sherer is not in a position to do anything meaningful with
> > respect to anything going on in Sudan or Afghanistan or Bosnia or
> > anyplace else outside of Israel or possibly (remotely possible) the
> > United States. <<
> >
> > History is replete with powerless people making tremendous
> > differences.
>
>Name one who made any difference whatsoever in a political
>sphere. And if you are going to say Mother Teresa, she was
>backed by the Church. You never would have heard of her
>otherwise.
>
> > >>
> > No one even asked the Pope for money. All we asked (we being
> > the Jewish people, not me specifically) was that he open his mouth. <<
> >
> > Look, I would rather defend you than the Pope.
>
>So why are you defending him? Doesn't it make you the lest bit
>uncomfortable to defend the Pope? Or have we suddenly bought
>into secular humanism. I'm okay, you're okay....
>
>But I think we as a
> > nation have been rather myopic.  We have been the shnorrers and have
> > not shared the wealth.
>
>What wealth? We don't have any wealth to share! What are you
>suggesting? That I tell my neighbor who can't put a chicken on the
>table for Shabbos that I'm too busy protesting the treatment of
>women in Afghanistan to make sure his kids have something to
>eat? Whom have we ever schnorred from who is not a Jew except
>for asking the leaders in the countries to which we have been
>exiled to protect us just as they do their own citizenry?
>
>It's very simple. Chazal tell us, "aniyei ircha kodmim." We take
>care of our own first. Then we can worry about others.
>
>-- Carl
>
>
>Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
>Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
>Telephone 972-2-625-7751
>Fax 972-2-625-0461
>mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
>mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
>
>Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
>Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
>Thank you very much.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

<<Friday, 24 March 2000, immediately following mass at Korazim near the
Mount of Beatitudes, Pope John Paul II will touch and bless an olive
tree sapling that will be presented to him by Co-Chairman of the Keren
Kayemeth LeIsrael - Jewish National Fund (KKL-JNF) Mr.  Shlomo Gravetz,
KKL-JNF Director General Mr. Itzhak Eliyashive and the President of
KKL-Italy Mr. Piero Abbina.
The sapling will be planted immediately afterwards at Amnun Bay at the
northwest corner of the Sea of Galilee by senior representatives of the
Vatican including cardinals, archbishops and bishops to inaugurate a 70
dunam (7 hectares or 17.5 acres) forest of mixed carob, oak, eucalyptus
and other species of trees, established by KKL-JNF to mark the Pope's
historic visit  in Israel.>>

	JNF cannot discriminate in favor of Jews,  compliments of the Israeli
Supreme Court.  But a Pope forest is fine.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

RE Turkel wrote:

>>I thought that discussion concerned the status of the second day of yomtov 
after the establishment of the fixed calendar.  I was asking the question about 
the era before any calendar and the month was set by witnesses. I assumed that 
then it was truly a safek chiyuv,

Anyone with access to the article in Bet Yitzchak would be helpful.>>

The article is in vol. 23 (5751).  The machlokes Rambam/Chachmei Luneil is in 
Hilchos Milah about making a berachah on the milah of an androginas.  See the 
Kessef Mishneh.  See also Chiddushei R. Chaim HeLevi (Soloveitchik) on Hilchos 
Yom Tov.

I believe the issue is the ORIGINAL takkanah of Yom Tov Sheini (before the 
calendar was established) and whether it was to act out of safek or an actual 
full-blown takkanah to keep a second day of Yom Tov because there was an issue 
of safek.  Based on the second sevarah there is a vadai chiyuv which is why we 
can make berachos.

RR Wolpoe wrote:

>>It is written in some siddurim that the Aramaic Targum should be said 
silently.

This poses a problem in how to engineer hashem Yimloch as anything other than 
the chazan syaing it aloud...

If the Chazan prompts with mei'assr beis shechintieh, he is saying some of the 
Aramaic aloud.

If he doesn't how can he prompt other than by saying haShem Yimloch.>>

I've been told that R. Dovid Lifschitz would give a klop to indicate it was time
to say Hashem yimloch...

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

 this particular case is an extrapolation from a pattern that seems
> well-established, that Minhagim in Frankfurt, KAJ, etc. have very old 
precdents
> and documentatoin, etc.

What kind of documentation, and where can I find it?

===>1) R. Hamburg's Shroshei Minhag Ashkenaz
2) Minhag Frankfurt (hard to find)
3) Minhag KAJ.


> My experience in other kehillos is that they are not as vigilant in preserving
> these fine points.


Why not?

==> I'm not sure, but:

1)Most kehillos will certainly not hesitate to change editions of a siddur - say
from Birnbaum to Artscroll, even tho' this will effectively change wrods here 
and there.  KAJ for exmpale has its own edition of the siddur for the sheliach 
taibbur, which follows its minhag

2) My shul in Teaneck WAS nusach sefard and is now nusach ashkenaz.  IOW 
Changing its nusach was  no big deal.  To be fair, the shul has set minhagim and
nusach and much of it is copied into the margins of the chazan's artscroll 
siddur  

3) when German kehillos were overrun by non-Germans, they generally ousted the 
old German Minhagim evne tho' keeping the name and charter of the shul the 
same... IOW it was a big deal for a german Kehillo to change a minhag but not 
for the non-Germans who superceded them...


> A prominent exception to this generality is re: kabblistic liturgy. SOME KAJ'e
rs> tell me that brich shmey is omitted cause that is the ancient minhag, or iow
i t
> never was added in. 

It's not in the Italian siddur, either. Never was.
==> is kabbalas Shabbos in the Italian Siddur? Is ana bekoach in there before 
lecha dodi?


> My impression is that brich shmei, ana bekoach and a few
> others are omitted DAVKA following shabtai zvi.  There are many who agree with
> me on this, but no one has a clear-cut source yet.  IOW it is possible that al
l
> of ashkenez and Polan sued to say brich shmei before SZ, and davka in germany 
> they stopped it, making this a NEWER minhag.


I don't think the Italians would have been as defensive about SZ as the 
Germans seem to be. I believe it was never there.

==>Question: Did Italians move Kabbalah "underground" as a result of SZ?  fwiw, 
Germans did.

> 
> Good Purim



Shushan Purim Same'ah!


---sam

In a message dated 3/22/00 9:03:16 AM Central Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< And anyone watching Peter Jennings realizes that Jews do not control the 
media -
 as far as I'm concerned.
 
..... and, who do you think pays Mr. Jennings' salary? None other than 
Michael Eisner, Chairman of Disney / Capital Cities, who wholly owns ABC TV!

In a message dated 3/22/00 9:03:16 AM Central Standard Time, 
owner-avodah@aishdas.org writes:

<< This was true even
 if the problem was caused by the need people felt to keep up with the
 Schwartzes.  >>
I resemble that comment. You wouldn't want to keep up with me!
Barry Schwartz

I had written that Mordechai was a great grandson of Yosef the Possuk says he 
was from Binyomin!

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

In a message dated 3/21/00 2:46:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
nwitty@ix.netcom.com writes:

<< HM should, in fairness to readers, remind readers that (as my memory 
serves)
 his wife is in the catering business, and as such his comment arguably stems
 from self-interest reather than altruism. In any case, those
 who make their living in the Simcha business" is  a smaler demography than
 the universe of those who are getiing married or parents of same.
  >>

Harry has never hid the fact that his wife is in the catering business. The 
fact that you chose to remind us, at the same time passing judgment on his 
motivations, betrays a smallness of person on your part which is very 
unbecoming. As someone in the Simcha business, I feel there is nothing wrong 
with reminding everyone point blank that one persons takkona is another 
persons downfall. After the takkonas are put into effect, please feel free to 
send your tzedakah checks to me. 


Jordan 

In a message dated 3/21/00 1:05:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, DFinchPC@aol.com 
writes:

<< Thoreau's use of the term "desperate enterprises" was poetic. It wasn't a 
 marching order. He didn't give marching orders -- he defied them.
 
 If, as Jews, we feel comfortable equating Henry David Thoreau with Eldridge 
 Cleaver, then we'll continue to victimize ourselves with our ignorance. 
Goyim 
 think of Jews as smart. Maybe they should think again.
  >>

I take my marching orders from Ward Cleaver.

Shushan Purim Samayach

Jordan

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Shlomo B. Abeles writes:
>This week's sedra is Tzav and we are told that there are
>Tzadi-Vov (96) pesukim and Tzav (Gematria 96) siman.
>Which is all very cute (Parshas Tzav, Tzav Pesukim & Tzav Siman)
>- - except for the fact that there are actually 97
>pesukim in this weeks Parsha!

Sefer Diyyukei Rashi notes that the number given at the end of Parashas =
Vayishlach is also off by one and attributes this to the general rule =
that gematria can be off by one.

kol tuv,
Yisrael Herczeg


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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Shlomo B. Abeles =
writes:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&gt;This week's sedra is Tzav and we =
are told=20
that there are<BR>&gt;Tzadi-Vov (96) pesukim and Tzav (Gematria 96)=20
siman.<BR>&gt;Which is all very cute (Parshas Tzav, Tzav Pesukim &amp; =
Tzav=20
Siman)<BR>&gt;- - except for the fact that there are actually =
97<BR>&gt;pesukim=20
in this weeks Parsha!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Sefer Diyyukei Rashi notes that the =
number given=20
at the end of Parashas Vayishlach is also off by one and attributes this =
to the=20
general rule that gematria can be off by one.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>kol tuv,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Yisrael =
Herczeg<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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