Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 453

Tuesday, March 21 2000

• birkhat hagomeil
• Takanos Redux
• re:how can we condemn etc.
• Re: Takanos Redux
• Re: Takanos Redux
• Re: Diyyuk Redux
• Re: how can we condemn etc.
• Re: Takanos Redux
• Diyukim Redux
• Re: Diyyuk Redux
• Megilas Esther & Sheimos/Tasmania
• Bnei Brak
• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least the same standard
• wedding takanos
• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least the same standard
• Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least the same s...
• Re: How can we condemn etc.
• Bill Gates (was Re: Bnei Brak) - Humor Alert

Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:19:51 -0600
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: birkhat ha-gomeil

<<On Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 12:19:23PM -0500, Gershon Dubin wrote:
: 	Is there another situation where one person can be motzi another with
a birchas hashevach,  as opposed to birchas hamitzva or birchas
hanehenin? 

How about Chazaras haShatz?>>

	These are not birchos hashevach.   As a matter of fact,  Rav Hutner says
that even the three first brachos which were put in "lesader shevacho
shel Mokom" are not considered birchos hashevach because they are only
prefatory to birchos hatefila.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

<<Take the truth no matter where it comes from (isn't this expression the
same lesson as why did Moshe Rabbeinu tell am Yisrael that they had
committed a great sin by the egel after he and bnai levi killed the
sinners?  Because the emainder committed a passive sin by allowing the
situation to develop -they were part of the problem by not being part of
the solution)>>

	Nobody said it was  **never**   true.  Where the Cleaverism breaks down
is in prioritization,  as has been mentioned by several other posters. 
Aniyei ircha kodmim and that stuff.  With the problems in our machane, 
we cannot possibly abandon time and resources to problems about which
others (i.e. goyim) should be worrying.

	This is the problem of philosophy by cliche':  it reduces the solutions
to all problems to a slogan.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

In response to my comment that " (a) The Holocaust was the work of
Christians; current  events are not the acts of Jews.  (b) Pope Pius (not
Pious, at least in  my opinion) was in a position not merely to protest,
but to help, unlike  Jews in current matters.  (a) applies to the pope;
(b) applies  to
 Roosevelt as well,"  David Finch responded, "Current events are not the
acts of Jews? Jews are unable to "help" in current matters? Roosevelt
didn't "help" the Jews during World War II? Really? "

This thread was begun by a comment about Jews not reacting to pogroms,
ethnic cleansing, etc. not involving Jews.  I am not aware of any recent
actions of that sort in which Jews were the perpetrators, and it was this
distinction between Jews and (l'havdil elef havdolos) Pius and the
Germans that I sought to draw.

As for Roosevelt, if he is considered to have "helped Jews" by virtue of
his conducting war on behalf of the US and its allies, then I suppose we
should say that by defeating the Nazis at Leningrad, Stalin helped the
Jews, since otherwise those Jews who were in the Soviet Union would have
suffered the same fate as Polish, German, Austrian, etc., Jews. Somehow,
I don't think David Finch would take that position.

Sadya N. Targum
________________________________________________________________
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In a message dated 3/20/00 9:01:19 PM US Central Standard Time, 
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

<< Where the Cleaverism breaks down
 is in prioritization,  as has been mentioned by several other posters. 
 Aniyei ircha kodmim and that stuff.  With the problems in our machane, 
 we cannot possibly abandon time and resources to problems about which
 others (i.e. goyim) should be worrying.
 
    This is the problem of philosophy by cliche':  it reduces the solutions
 to all problems to a slogan. >>

Maybe. But to avoid commitment on grounds that others (i.e., the Goyim) 
should be doing the work for us is, I think, one of the "desperate 
enterprises" about which Thoreau warned. 

David Finch

On 20 Mar 00, at 23:31, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> Maybe. But to avoid commitment on grounds that others (i.e., the Goyim) 
> should be doing the work for us is, I think, one of the "desperate 
> enterprises" about which Thoreau warned. 

I don't think the argument is so much that others should be doing 
the work for us as it is that we are responsible for our own first.

Freilichen Purim.

-- Carl (for whom it is not yet Purim!)


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:


> 
> I fail to see the connection between your point and my point.
> 
> To restate my point, KAJ makes a disticntion between the Uva litziyon keudsha -
> which IS said aloud
> 
> And the v'atoh Kaddosh Kedusha (said usually on motzo'ei shabbos) which is
> recited silently - iow no chazan k'hal response.
> I added taht I thought this distinction betwen the 2 forms might have existe
> elsewhere, but was obscured by some congregations who blurre the disticntion and
> trasnferred th out loud version to v'ta kaddosh.
> 
> Now if that is clear, how is this related to that disticntion or lack thereof?
> 


Actually, I didn't have much of a point. Your theory intrigued me, and I
went looking for sources to help prove or disprove it. 

The sources I found did neither. Which leaves me wondering if it's
another relatively recent hiddush, or, as you suggested, an older minhag
that was lost everywhere else. The doubts I expressed were toward that,
that you seemed to be suggesting that out of the entire Jewish world,
only KAJ retained what would have once been a universal practice.

I still have doubts. And I'm still wondering why we say Ve'atah Kadosh.
I'll see what else I can find.


---sam

In a message dated 3/20/00 9:53:55 PM US Central Standard Time, 
targum1@juno.com writes:

<< As for Roosevelt, if he is considered to have "helped Jews" by virtue of
 his conducting war on behalf of the US and its allies, then I suppose we
 should say that by defeating the Nazis at Leningrad, Stalin helped the
 Jews, since otherwise those Jews who were in the Soviet Union would have
 suffered the same fate as Polish, German, Austrian, etc., Jews. Somehow,
 I don't think David Finch would take that position.
  >>

Not exactly. Stalin was a butcher who liked killing all sorts of inconvenient 
fellow-countrymen, including Jews. He didn't want to help Jews, but if 
defeating the Nazis had such an undesirable side effect, well, Stalin could 
attend to the matter later. And he did. Many a minyan were formed in each 
barracks at Gulag. 

Roosevelt had a history of working closely with Jewish groups on a number of 
domestic issues throughout the New Deal. Some of his closest working 
confidantes (note I didn't say "friends") were Jewish -- Morgenthau, Hillman, 
et al. -- and no one can point to any record, public or private, of personal 
anti-Semitism on FDR's part. (His wife, however, occasionally exploded in 
anti-Jewish invective in private conversation and correspondence throughout 
her life.) 

What Roosevelt did in the war, given the restraints imposed upon him by 
American Isolationism right up until Pearl Harbor, was nothing less than a 
miracle. If you believe in the Flood, if you believe that HaShem can change 
the natural order of things for His purposes -- if you believe in miracles, 
then you must believe that HaShem had a hand in Roosevelt's wartime deeds. 
It's easy for people who haven't bothered to study the day-to-day tactical 
realities of the European war to say, well, Roosevelt just didn't care, all 
he had to do was spare a couple of bombers but he couldn't be bothered with 
saving the lives of mere Jews. This is a horrible cheap shot, another example 
of Jews proudly sticking the label "so-called" in front of the label "friend" 
that history has attached to those who have fought honorably for us. It also 
dishonors the memory the thousands of American and British troops who were 
killed advancing toward concentration camps that were located in the Western 
attack zone. 

Always the victim, always the loser, always let down by the outside world. 
Bitter, cynical, licking our wounds and then pulling the scabs. Is that our 
vision of Judaism? Is that what we want to teach our children? Is that an 
approach that will convince younger Jews to stay within the community? Does 
this have anything to do with the joy of observance?

As I said, this is very saddening to me.

David Finch

In a message dated 3/20/00 10:41:34 PM US Central Standard Time, 
sherer@actcom.co.il writes:

<< I don't think the argument is so much that others should be doing 
 the work for us as it is that we are responsible for our own first. >>

Where does our work leave off and the work of the world at large begin -- 
especially since we like to blame the world at large (instead of, Heaven 
forbid, ourselves) for everything unpleasant that happens to us?

David Finch

> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 13:51:35 -0500
> From: "Stein, Aryeh E." <aes@ll-f.com>
> Subject: RE: Diyyuk Redux
 
<<FWIW, R' SZ Auerbach holds that the third pasuk of kedusha of Uva
liTziyon/Va'to Kadosh ("Hashem Yimloch...") should not be said out loud
(contrary to the "yaish omrim" of Artscroll).  The reason is because this
pasuk is from the Chumash, while the first two pesukim ("Kadosh..."  and
"Baruch...") are not.>>

	What is the reasoning for the distinction?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

I wrote:


> Actually, I didn't have much of a point. Your theory intrigued me, and I
> went looking for sources to help prove or disprove it.
> 
> The sources I found did neither. Which leaves me wondering if it's
> another relatively recent hiddush, or, as you suggested, an older minhag
> that was lost everywhere else. The doubts I expressed were toward that,
> that you seemed to be suggesting that out of the entire Jewish world,
> only KAJ retained what would have once been a universal practice.
> 
> I still have doubts. And I'm still wondering why we say Ve'atah Kadosh.
> I'll see what else I can find.


Sefer Ha'eshkol goes on (I was in a hurry the other night and stopped
when I shouldn't have)... That since Tefillot Shabbat are long enough
already, with Keriat Hatorah and Musaf, KD's is put off until Minhah. So
that explains saying it then, which had me wondering. R' Poppers answer
was good for weekdays, but didn't help me with Shabbat.

The third reason I mentioned, which I couldn't recall the source for,
was Abudarham. He also continues... That we say KD's at Shabbat Minhah
because it speaks of the Ge'ula, and that during the times of the
Amora'im, it was customary for the town Hacham to speak before Shabbat
Minhah, and he would always finish with those pesukim we have in U'va
Lezion that speak of redmption and salvation.

So that's Minhah. Periferal to your point, I know. As for Arvit, the
only thing I've found so far is the Taz, O"H 295,1 who says that the
first two pesukim are not added now because Moshiach will not come at
night, so that the nations won't be able to say that we ran away like
thieves in the night. He doesn't say anything at all about saying it
quietly.

Which strengthens my doubt.

Tunisa'im gam omrim "Burim Same'ah".

Purim Same'ah to you.


---sam

>richard_wolpoe wrote: lkeacha mordeachi lo l'vas
>L'vas = L'vais
>Bitehco = veitcheho
>Just as Mordechai's Bas was his wife, so
>too the dibros allude to ishtecho via vitecho

That may be a fine pshetl. But of course the obvious pshat is
"Atoh" refers to the wife - just as much as it refers to her husband.

SP

SHLOMO B ABELES

Harry Maryles wrote:

>....Why should Bnei Brak get a larger share of the National tax revenue
>than, say, Ramat Aviv? Equity demands that the greatest contributors
>to the tax pie should be the greatest recipients.

Azoi!? So tell me in which democratic country don't the rich subsidize the poor?
Why, your USofA not only spends billions supporting their own needy but spends
a similar amount supporting poor countries everywhere.
IIRC most Western countries spend the biggest part of their budgets on
welfare and simlar services - which AFAIK go exclusively  to the poor
- and defibitely not too the "greatest contributors".
(You really think Bill Gates would go to Kupat Cholim?)

SHLOMO B ABELES

Hi Carl,

Happy Purim from the USA!

>>
I think the church did a lot more than just shev v'al taaseh. Nazi
Germany relied specifically on church doctrine.

Moreover, the Jews were right under the Pope's nose. The pope is
in Italy, which was part of the Axis. If the Pope had spoken out,
Italy could have become a safe haven for the Jews. Instead, the
Jews in Italy suffered the same fate as the Jews in other countries.
<<

Your description of the facts are fine, but my point is thus…..

Your repeatedly state reasons why the Pope should have done more, while 
simultaneously stating that the Jews are powerless and stating “I am going 
to worry about them before I worry about Sudan or Afghanistan or Bosnia or 
anyplace else, which is not my people and where my potential impact is 
minimal”.  You can not have it both ways.  If we tyna that the Pope should 
do more, then we as a nation, no matter how powerless must do our 
hishtadlus.  If not, we are all hypocrites.

Your posts are seemingly full of chutzpah.  We want the Pope to save us yet 
we are too busy in our own neighborhoods to help anyone else.

>>
Carl Sherer is not in a position to do anything meaningful with respect to 
anything going on in Sudan or Afghanistan or Bosnia or anyplace else outside 
of Israel or possibly (remotely possible) the United States.
<<

History is replete with powerless people making tremendous differences.

>>
No one even asked the Pope for money. All we asked (we being
the Jewish people, not me specifically) was that he open his mouth.
<<

Look, I would rather defend you than the Pope.  But I think we as a nation 
have been rather myopic.  We have been the shnorrers and have not shared the 
wealth.

/af





>From: "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
>Reply-To: cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
>To: "aviva fee" <aviva613@hotmail.com>, avodah@aishdas.org
>Subject: Re: How can we condemn the church if we do not live up to at least 
>the same standard
>Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:51:09 +0200
>
>On 20 Mar 00, at 10:26, aviva fee wrote:
>
> > Given your response, I have this to say:
> >
> > During the Holocaust, what was the chiyuv of the Church to save Jews?
>
>I think the church did a lot more than just shev v'al taaseh. Nazi
>Germany relied specifically on church doctrine.
>
>Moreover, the Jews were right under the Pope's nose. The pope is
>in Italy, which was part of the Axis. If the Pope had spoken out,
>Italy could have become a safe haven for the Jews. Instead, the
>Jews in Italy suffered the same fate as the Jews in other countries.
>
>More
> > specifically, can't the Pope claim that he had no obligation to save 
>Jews?
>
>The Pope is a leader the likes of which the Jewish people do not
>have. We do not have one religious leader these days. If we had a
>Moshe Rabbeinu, lehavdil, maybe he would have an obligation to
>speak out about every trouble spot in the world.  But Carl Sherer
>going out and protesting against whatever is going on in the Sudan
>is not going to make a difference to anyone. Carl Sherer is not in a
>position to do anything meaningful with respect to anything going
>on in Sudan or Afghanistan or Bosnia or anyplace else outside of
>Israel or possibly (remotely possible) the United States.
>
>No one even asked the Pope for money. All we asked (we being
>the Jewish people, not me specifically) was that he open his mouth.
>
> > Pope Pious can quote you by stating that his responsibilities to the
> > billions of Catholics simply left him with no time to help a few million
> > Jews.
>
>Give me a break! Can't you see the absurdity in that statement?
>Someone who is the undisputed leader of a billion people at least
>has the obligation to tell his own people not to join in the party. I
>don't know of any Jews running concentration camps anyplace in
>the world today or at any other time. Are you seriously suggesting
>that if Pius had opened his mouth and said "don't do that," it would
>not have had an effect on the Polish Catholics?
>
> > Franklin Roosevelt will state that hey, we were coming off the 
>depression,
> > the USA simply could not exert the time or money to remove some Jews 
>from
> > the camps.
>
>That's essentially what he said.
>
> > Carl, thanks so much, until your posting, I was never able to be dan 
>lecaf
> > zechut to the Pope and Roosevelt, now I am.  They were way too osek in 
>their
> > work to save Jews.
>
>If that's how you feel, then I think you have a warped concept of
>"dan lekaf zchus." The words "secular humanism" come to mind.
>
>-- Carl
>
>
>Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
>Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
>Telephone 972-2-625-7751
>Fax 972-2-625-0461
>mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
>mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
>
>Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
>Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
>Thank you very much.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

HM wrote:

"There is no consideration in these Takanos for those
who make their living in the Simcha business. "

HM should, in fairness to readers, remind readers that (as my memory serves)
his wife is in the catering business, and as such his comment arguably stems
from self-interest reather than altruism. In any case, those
who make their living in the Simcha business" is  a smaler demography than
the universe of those who are getiing married or parents of same.

Happy Purim.
NW

On 20 Mar 00, at 22:22, aviva fee wrote:

> Your repeatedly state reasons why the Pope should have done more,
> while simultaneously stating that the Jews are powerless and stating
> “I am going to worry about them before I worry about Sudan or
> Afghanistan or Bosnia or anyplace else, which is not my people and
> where my potential impact is minimal”.  You can not have it both ways.
>  If we tyna that the Pope should do more, then we as a nation, no
> matter how powerless must do our hishtadlus.  If not, we are all
> hypocrites.

No, we are not. We are acknowledging reality. We are a small 
nation that has been persecuted throughout the ages. No one of us 
has the individual wherewithal to make an impact on a large 
number of people. The Pope, lehavdil, clearly does. On the Pope's 
say so, millions of people will act or not act. When the Pope says 
"jump," R"L even many Jews ask "how high?" If you don't believe 
that, I can only tell you that I may not be able to get to work on 
Thursday because the Pope is going to be in town. Hundreds of 
Israeli police are scheduled to be mechalel Shabbos this week, 
R"L, because the Pope is holding masses in the north on 
Shabbos. I don't know of any Jews, or any groups of Jews, who 
can have that kind of impact on so many people today. 

Lehavdil elef alfei havdolos, when the Satmar Rov was here a 
couple of years ago, they barely closed one main street for him on 
Shabbos. I was able to drive right by the Duchinsky shul while he 
was there. How many people who are not fruhm listen to a word 
said by the Gdolim? R"L there is no comparison.

All Pope Pius (what an ironic name!) had to do was to get up in St. 
Peter's Square and make one little speech saying that Catholics 
should not align themselves with the Nazis Yimach Shmom. It 
would have taken Italy out of the Axis and calmed the Polish 
beasts. At a minimum. Instead the Church continued to accuse 
Jews of deicide....

If every Rov in the world got up and said genocide in Sudan is 
terrible, it would have no impact whatsoever on whatever is going 
on there. It might get Jews to donate money there, but that would 
likely come at the expense of many of our own people who are 
starving in the streets. Just like the money that the Federations in 
the US are so gleefully donating to "Palestinian causes" come at 
the expense of Jews (both locally and in Israel) who formerly 
benefitted from Federation moneys. As far as I am concerned, that 
is not worth the effort.

> Your posts are seemingly full of chutzpah.  

I am appalled at people like you and Finch who are willing to 
defend the virulently anti-Semitic Pope Pius. What a golus 
mentality!

> Carl Sherer is not in a position to do anything meaningful with
> respect to anything going on in Sudan or Afghanistan or Bosnia or
> anyplace else outside of Israel or possibly (remotely possible) the
> United States. <<
> 
> History is replete with powerless people making tremendous
> differences.

Name one who made any difference whatsoever in a political 
sphere. And if you are going to say Mother Teresa, she was 
backed by the Church. You never would have heard of her 
otherwise.

> >>
> No one even asked the Pope for money. All we asked (we being
> the Jewish people, not me specifically) was that he open his mouth. <<
> 
> Look, I would rather defend you than the Pope.  

So why are you defending him? Doesn't it make you the lest bit 
uncomfortable to defend the Pope? Or have we suddenly bought 
into secular humanism. I'm okay, you're okay....

But I think we as a
> nation have been rather myopic.  We have been the shnorrers and have
> not shared the wealth.

What wealth? We don't have any wealth to share! What are you 
suggesting? That I tell my neighbor who can't put a chicken on the 
table for Shabbos that I'm too busy protesting the treatment of 
women in Afghanistan to make sure his kids have something to 
eat? Whom have we ever schnorred from who is not a Jew except 
for asking the leaders in the countries to which we have been 
exiled to protect us just as they do their own citizenry?

It's very simple. Chazal tell us, "aniyei ircha kodmim." We take 
care of our own first. Then we can worry about others.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 20 Mar 00, at 14:45, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

 It's as
> if we want to paint the word "Victim" all over our faces all of the
> time, in every context. Somehow it makes us feel better. It's the
> saddest part of Judaism today.

No. The saddest part of Judaism today is how some Jews feel they 
have to be k'chol hagoyim and do whatever they can to curry favor 
in the eyes of the nations. Like the government here that is 
covering over the Magen David on the ambulance that will follow the 
Pope around on his trip here, lest the Vatican be offended.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 20 Mar 00, at 17:43, DFinchPC@aol.com wrote:

> Current events are not the acts of Jews? 

I don't know of any Jews currently in the Sudan or Afghanistan. The 
only Jews I know of in Bosnia are the ones trying to escape. How 
are current events "acts of the Jews?" Whom are the Jews 
torturing? When have the Jews ever run concentration camps? 

Jews are unable to "help" in
> current matters? 

What current matter do you think Jews can help and how? 

Roosevelt didn't "help" the Jews during World War II?
> Really? 

Roosevelt helped the Jews when it helped his war effort. Other than 
that he didn't care.

> Let us pray that HaShem saves us from ourselves.

Let us pray that Hashem saves us from secular humanism and the 
golus mentality.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

On 21 Mar 00, at 17:19, SBA wrote:

(You really think Bill Gates would go to Kupat Cholim?)

I heard Bill is divorcing his wife. It seems that she doesn't do 
windows anymore....

Freilichen Purim.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

*********************


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