Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 336

Friday, February 4 2000

• Smoking on Yom Tov
• Fw: Making Aliya to Save Your Kids
• Re: smoking
• Re: Smoking On Yom Tov
• Re: Smoking
• Re: Re[2]: smoking
• Smoking Ban
• wine/water
• Re: Smoking Ban
• re: smoking
• Re: smoking
• Re: Avodah V4 #332
• Re: smoking
• smoking
• Re: Smoking
• Re: Smoking
• Re: Smoking ban
• Starting Gemara
• Re: Smoking
• Re: Smoking
• Re[4]: smoking
• Re[4]: smoking

On 3 Feb 00, at 16:02, richard_wolpoe@org.com wrote:

> The heter for smoking on YomTov is in the Aruch Hashulchan that I just
> alluded to in my other post. (IOW our posts crossed)
> 
> And as a former occasional cigar/pipe smoker, I can tell you that it
> DID help me to digest a large festive meal, and it was more that just
> psychosomatic; many smokers crave a smoke after a large meal.

See the Korban Nesanel on the Rosh in Meseches Beitza Perek 2 
Siman 22 Os Yud.

See also Biur Halacha 511:4 s"v Ain Oisen.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-avodah@aishdas.org [mailto:owner-avodah@aishdas.org] On
> > Behalf Of Carl and Adina Sherer
> > Sent: 02 February 2000 22:56
> > To: avodah@aishdas.org
> > Subject: Making Aliya to Save Your Kids

First,  yasher co'ach!

Galus is an old and comfortable shoe.

It lets in icy water, thorns and draughts. It has holes, so it's no
protection from baking pavements or snow- .
but it's been worn for a long time, it fits like, well, like an old shoe-
it's moulded to our foot.

Even in Israel there are plenty of folk who are still wearing their old
shoes-  but Baruch Hashem - *we have the option to change*.
We fear change.  Change is a painful challenge  because we have to face the
reality that we've been wearing an old shoe-
that makes us feel foolish. Who wants to feel foolish?
We also fear the new shoe.
It'll take so much time to break in!  For sure it will not be comfortable.
It'll pinch, it'll rub, it won't be satisfactory.
We need to trust that the new shoes were set aside for us from the beginning
by our loving Father in Heaven.  They were made perfectly for us, they will
give us total satisfaction and the transition is really not so bad, esp if
your motivated.

Leaving galus has many aspects and levels-  coming here is just one of them.


Shalom-   Mrs G.Atwood.
.

You certainly are allowed to do the former, and, the latter, only in the
last stages would it be certifiably assur.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
To: Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechhofer <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>;
<avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: smoking


> On 3 Feb 00, at 13:34, Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechh wrote:
>
> > While smoking is stupid and repugnant and may be forbidden when it
bothers
> > others, I cannot see an halachic justification for forbidding it in
> > private or among fellow smokers.
>
> If I want to run out in the street in front of a car R"L, am I allowed to
> do that? If I want to starve myself to death R"L, am I allowed to do
> that?
>
> -- Carl
>
>
> Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
> Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
> Telephone 972-2-625-7751
> Fax 972-2-625-0461
> mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
> mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
>
> Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
> Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
> Thank you very much.
>

I would like all list readers to note that R Moshe Shternbuch in Teshuvos 
vHanhagos 1:216 discusses the issue of smoking on Yom Tov . R' Shternbuch 
questions the halachic propriety of smoking on Yom Tov and emphasizes that 
the medical proof or metzius has led him to prohibit smoking on weekdays in 
his shul.In his opinion, there is really no basis for smoking 
                                                   zeliglaw@aol.com
                                                    Steven brizel

Sorry to break netiquette, but I think Reb David is 100% on the mark here.

As long as the rabbinate is not constituted as a Sanhedrin, their authority
to legislate is minimal to non-existent.
Of course, we all hope for the speedy restoration of a theocracy...

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <DFinchPC@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: Smoking


> In a message dated 2/3/00 2:03:40 PM US Central Standard Time,
> daniel2121_99@yahoo.com writes:
>
> << Exactly the argument used by the tobacco
>  companies--if you regulate cigarettes, you have to
>  regulate red meat, etc.!!!!
>  ___________________ >>
>
> There's a big difference asking one's government to regulate unhealthful
or
> hazardous substances, on the one hand, and asking one's rabbi to decide
> whether the use of such substances is assur, on the other. Over the long
> haul, democracy prevents the  government from engaging in excessive
> regulation. But by merely characterizing an issue as halachic and then
> turning it over to the rabbinate, one grants the rabbinate unlimited
> authority in relation to that issue, because we're agreeing up front to
> following the rabbinical ruling as a form of holy law. If this authority
> extends to things like tobacco usage, then we are in effect granting the
> rabbinate unlimited authority over anything that might be personally
harmful
> to us. No one elects rabbis. They are supposed to speak HaShem's law --
and
> no one gets to oust HaShem, either.
>
> David Finch
>
>

On 3 Feb 00, at 15:14, richard_wolpoe@org.com wrote:

> BRAVO,NOW YOU GOT IT!
> 
> Lshitoscho that smoking is a clear and present danger:
> . it's just as abusrd for gedolim then to ban smoking as it is for them to ban 
> playing in trarfic!
> 
> Elm mai?  Gedolim - for better for for worse - do not restate the obvious.

Only one catch. Most people do not play in traffic, and do not need 
to be told. Unfortunately, much of the (male, at least here) fruhm 
world, DOES smoke and DOES need to be told.

-- Carl


Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

It's been a while since I studied this issue, but
don't the rabbis have the discretionary authority to
forbid things, if necessary, which are technically
MUTTAR (e.g., smoking)?

I don't think "ain rov hatzibur yecholim la'amod bo"
(due to addiction)is a good answer to the foregoing
question, because the rabbis could simply ban PEOPLE
WHO NEVER STARTED SMOKING from starting!


On 3 Feb 00, at 13:34, Shoshanah M. & Yosef G. Bechh
wrote:

> While smoking is stupid and repugnant and may be
forbidden when it
bothers
> others, I cannot see an halachic justification for
forbidding it in
> private or among fellow smokers.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

Harry Weiss commented: 
"
We see throughout Shas that wine was always diluted and without this it
was not drinkable.  I would imagine if that is because of the different
growing /irrigation techniques that result in jucier grapes and
winemaking techniques that result in less evaporation.    "

This is really for historians, but I believe that wine was routinely 
shipped and stored in concentrate in the Roman Empire - there are
literary references to discussions at the beginning of dinner parties
re whether to dilute the wine 4/1 or 5/1 with water. I presume that
it was more cost effective to ship concentrates (as we see with juice 
concentrates nowadays) and to add water just before consumption. 


__________________________________________________________________
Claude Schochet				claude@math.wayne.edu	
					www.math.wayne.edu/~claude
Mathematics Department			313-577-3177	office phone		
Wayne State University		    	313-577-7596	department fax
Detroit, MI 48202
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Levine <daniel2121_99@yahoo.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 8:32 PM
Subject: Smoking Ban


> It's been a while since I studied this issue, but
> don't the rabbis have the discretionary authority to
> forbid things, if necessary, which are technically
> MUTTAR (e.g., smoking)?
>
> I don't think "ain rov hatzibur yecholim la'amod bo"
> (due to addiction)is a good answer to the foregoing
> question, because the rabbis could simply ban PEOPLE
> WHO NEVER STARTED SMOKING from starting!
>
>

To the best of my knowledge, such authority is only vested in a Sanhedrin.
There was once a time when "Cherem Ha'Kehillos" was an affective
alternative, but we no longer have organized kehillos with the capacity to
impose such charomim. If all the rabbonim of a region would collectively
impose a ban AND a majority of the tzibbur of that region would accept that
ban, it would be effective.

But, to propose that a specific Rav, great as he may be, or even a group of
Rabbonim, should ban smoking, is an interesting idea, but one that would be
bereft of any binding authority.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

R' Rich Wolpoe wrote: <<< it's just as absurd for gedolim then to ban
smoking as it is for them to ban playing in traffic! Elm mai? Gedolim -
for better for for worse - do not restate the obvious. >>>

This is a very interesting comment, and consistent with many of R'
Wolpoes recent posts. But I wonder... Let's go back to the way I remember
this subject being raised - by comparing it to the Internet ban.

Are the two really so different? Both smoking and the Internet are SUBTLE
dangers. To the uneducated, neither has any obvious danger. Let's be
honest -- how many of us have any *personal* knowledge of the dangers of
tobacco? At the most, only the physicians among us. The rest of us have
read a lot in the popular press and have formulated our ideas
accordingly. I am not saying that I think tobacco is safe. Of course not.
I do believe it to be dangerous. But it is only a *belief*; I am an
ignoramus in these areas, and I depend on the advice of people more
knowledgable than me.

Is this not the same as what we can say about the Internet? To the
novice, the Internet is like a shopping center - some fun things, some
serious things, some dangerous things. Experienced surfers know what is
out there, and have formed varied opinions about how difficult (or how
easy) it is to stay away from the dangerous areas. This is similar to the
varied opinions in the medical community. Is a single cigarette - or even
a whole pack - each Purim more or less dangerous than two cups of wine
each Shabbos? I doubt one will find unanimity among the medics on this.

My point is that I disagree with R' Wolpoe. I agree that the gedolim do
not campaign for the obvious, nor do they fight battles which others are
fighting. But you can't compare smoking to playing in traffic. Smoking is
an insidious danger, more like alcohol, television, and the internet,
than like more obvious dangers. Therefore, I suspect that if this was why
they don't ban smoking, then they wouldn't ban the Internet either. So
the reason why they don't ban smoking must be something other than this
idea that the dangers of smoking are so obvious.

Personally my guess as to why they don't ban smoking is that they don't
consider it assur. (Sure, some do ban it, but we're not talking about
those gedolim right now.) The general thrust of this thread has been to
presume that smoking is in fact assur, and that leads to the question of
why the gedolim do not publicize this. BUT MAYBE THOSE GEDOLIM DON'T
THINK SO.

Consider the concept of "naval birshus haTorah". Implicit in this concept
is the idea that these acts are muttar, but wrong. We who do not want to
do wrong avoid such acts, but that does not make them assur! (Yes, I know
this could lead to a whole discussion of whether or not there exists any
optional middle ground between "have to" and "cannot", but we've already
gone though that, ok?) Now let's transfer that concept to health issues.
There are acts which are unhealthy but not deadly. We need to investigate
where the line is drawn.

One poster wants to forbid fatty pastrami, but allow lean turkey; another
sincerely wants to ban all meat on health grounds. Vegetarians are a
minority, but you can't say that the idea is *totally* groundless. Most
doctors allow meat in moderation, and I suspect that tobacco - in
moderation (however you want to define that) - would also be okay. And if
a posek feels that you can't legislate such things, who are we to argue?

Akiva Miller

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

In a message dated 2/3/00 11:58:10 PM US Central Standard Time, 
kennethgmiller@juno.com writes:

<< Experienced surfers know what is
 out there, and have formed varied opinions about how difficult (or how
 easy) it is to stay away from the dangerous areas.  >>

Hey, dude! Whaddaya think of the Banzai Pipeline in Oahu? Point Hueneme? 
Redondo? Do you use a boogie board or nine-footer? Do you wax up or wax down? 
I saw thus guy wearing Tzitzit while cutting the grain at Zuma, he was way 
cool, very trick. Before he paddled out to the point, he agonized over 
whether to stick the Tzitzit into his wetsuit or let the fringes hang out. He 
let them hang out -- all of us like to hang out.

That was you, right?

David Finch

Re M. Feldstein's question about separate seating at a Shul wedding vs
separate
seating at a reception: 
  There are opinions that since a Shul is a makom kadosh , it wld require
separate seating regardless of the activity taking place there, including
things like lectures, and certainly religious occasions like a chuppah.
 -Emanuel Feldman

In message , richard_wolpoe@org.com writes
>BRAVO,NOW YOU GOT IT!
>
>Lshitoscho that smoking is a clear and present danger:
>. it's just as abusrd for gedolim then to ban smoking as it is for them to ban 
>playing in trarfic!
>

Actually, here in England, there has been something of a campaign in the
Jewish Tribune and among the Aguda to get kids to wear bicycle helmets
and ride their bikes carefully on precisely these grounds.  (In
Australia, of course, bicycle helmets are compulsory, but in this
country it is till optional.  On that subject, and as a caution for
anybody out there, a friend of my mother's (with a girl my age) husband
had an accident with a bicycle in the days before helmets were even
common, not to mention compulsory, and was rendered a complete mental
invalid.  Talk about an Aguna situation - he was phsyically functioning,
but no mental capacity, I don't think he even recognised her, and needed
full time care like a small child, so there was no way of him either
giving a get or living anywhere else than a home).

>Rich Wolpoe
-- 
Chana/Heather Luntz

Daniel Levine wrote:

<<<<What I am asking is how come we have rabbis preaching,
screaming, and instigating mass hysteria and social
pressure about the dangers of the internet, while the
dangers of smoking have basically been ignored. Even
without a "gzeira," the rabonim would be able to
instill enough social pressure so that at least those
who are not addicted to tobacco will be less likely to
start smoking.>>>>


I agree completely. The leading Israeli Chareidi newspaper "Yated Ne'eman" 
and the leading Chareidi magazine both regularly advertise cigarettes on 
their weekend editions.

The commercials are full page - back page and in color. One regular 
advertisement has a picture of a Havdalah set and a box of Time cigarettes 
with a cherrful wish of "Shavua Tov!" floating above them.
The other has a pile of old sforim with a ciggarette box placed before them 
and the caption is - get ready for this - "Lisifsei Chachomim".

But not to worry. The ad informs us that theirs are the only cigarettes with 
a hechsher.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Rabbi Bechhofer writes: << While smoking is stupid and repugnant and may be 
forbidden when it bothers  others, I cannot see an halachic justification for 
forbidding it in private or among fellow smokers. >>

If so, then [a] halachic justifications (the system) are simply flawed or 
lack any legal sophistication, or [b] perhaps there may be a "b'tzinah" vs. 
"b'phargesiah" distinction with smoking and that seems totally erroneous, or 
[c] this is invoking the principle of "mutav sheyihiyu shog'gin..." 

I have tracked the issue of smoking and halacha for the last 50 years, since 
I did a report in seventh grade about the subject for health sciences. The 
earliest concerns were if - then - smoking of certain brands was permitted 
over Pesach since the glue which was used to paste the wrapper together comes 
into contact with ones mouth and there was a concern about chometz on Pesach. 
Here we have a halachic concern for the soul which is stronger than for the 
body. 

The same sort of thinking - tragically flawed according to critics of halacha 
- occurs with matters of "tarfus" (which lead to "timtum hanefesh" in the 
parlance of the RaMo and others) where certain things are so strenuously 
pushed away as opposed to the "mehadrin hashgochos" that we find on virtual 
poison. "Timtum haguf" is not as strictly legislated in halachah (for the 
masses, at least) as the spiritual dimensions of "timtum hanefesh". 

Halachic justification may not exist for banning smoking. But what about the 
"musar" of the matter whether in public or in private?

Smoking is an unfortunate situation (addiction) for anyone who does engage in 
the matter. The once who is afflicted has my deep  compassion. But to glorify 
it or wisk it away with one or another rationale is tragic. No less tragic 
than the talmid chochom who, these days, is morbidly obese.

chaim wasserman

>>>What conclusion? That smoking will kill you? Or that it contravenes the law of G-d to smoke? - David Finch<<<

Since it is against halacha to kill (or even cause injury to) oneself and smoking can kill you...QED.

Re: gedolim do not state the obvious - it is apparently not so obvious to the large # of otherwise shomrei halacha Jews who remain smokers.  

(Derech agav: it is clearly a violation of u'shmartem, but whether it is actually retzicha on oneself I'm not sure as perhaps it is a gerama.)

Needless to say there is a categorical issur to smoke if this bothers
someone else (see: Nishmat Avraham Choshen Mishpat "Din harchakat nezikim"
Siman 155 #2  and in Orach Chaim 511 #1 where he quotes the Tzitz Eliezer
to that effect).

Josh

I heard from one yeshiva that they start teaching mishnayos in 3rd grade (to 8 
yr olds) and gemara in 4th grade (to 9 yr olds).  Is that standard?  Could 
people please specify the approximate affiliation within the MO/RW spectrum when
stating a school's stance on this.

I would have thought that you would give boys a few years of just mishnayos 
before starting gemara.  But what do I know?

Thank you,

Gil Student
gil.student@citicorp.com

Mussar is a different matter altogether.

One may well argue that smoking is not proper behavior for a Ba'al Mussar.

But, not everyone, unfortunately, is so concerned with being a Ba'al Mussar.
Otherwise, there would be a whole range of activities, some potentially as
harmful to one's Mussar profile, that they would restrict.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: <Chaimwass@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: Smoking


> Halachic justification may not exist for banning smoking. But what about
the
> "musar" of the matter whether in public or in private?
>

----- Original Message -----
From: <C1A1Brown@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2000 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: Smoking


> (Derech agav: it is clearly a violation of u'shmartem, but whether it is
actually retzicha on oneself I'm not sure as perhaps it is a gerama.)
>

It is not clear to me.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

Do you really think the Gedolim sipmley ignored the obvious  that most of the 
world defacto equates Zionsism with Judaism?  

I think that they simply relied upon organizations such as the Anti-Defmation 
League which specializes in this kind of defense, that teh gedolim had little 
weight to add.

Rich Wolpoe

Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: smoking   
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    2/3/2000 6:11 PM


On 3 Feb 00, at 15:05, richard_wolpoe@org.com wrote:

> When a world organizatoin decrees Zionism is racism - it's irrelevant?

Well certainly to the anti-Zionists among them it is.

The Gdolim (most of them anyway) try not to get involved in 
politics. That was viewed as politics.

What psak would you expect them to issue? To go out and sign 
petitions? To whom? Saying what?

-- Carl

\

So why stop at smoking

1) Requiring Mammograms for women and prostate exams for men!

2) Ban on shoveling snow frot those over 40  (I'm hoping that this catches on 
because we have had a lot of sonw lately! <smile>)

3) Prohibit Gribenes

4) How about driving on Purim?

5) Driving Corvairs 

6) Driving without seatbelts or infant carseats.

7) Riding the NYC Subway system

You get the idea.

I think the Gedolim have a sense what IS their business and what is not.
How about this, why not require anyone who wishes to smoke consult their LOR 
first with a shei'lo for a psak din!

Rich Wolpoe
Richard_Wolpoe@ibi.com 




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: smoking  
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    2/3/2000 6:49 PM


On 3 Feb 00, at 15:14, richard_wolpoe@org.com wrote:

> BRAVO,NOW YOU GOT IT!
> 
> Lshitoscho that smoking is a clear and present danger:
> . it's just as abusrd for gedolim then to ban smoking as it is for them to ban
> playing in trarfic!
> 
> Elm mai?  Gedolim - for better for for worse - do not restate the obvious.

Only one catch. Most people do not play in traffic, and do not need 
to be told. Unfortunately, much of the (male, at least here) fruhm 
world, DOES smoke and DOES need to be told.

-- Carl

*********************


[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version.                   ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org                                         ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/              ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org         ]