Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 220

Monday, December 27 1999

• Re: Slap in the Face
• An Economist's View of Chareidim
• Re: Slap in the Face
• Yevamos 008b: Doing a Mitzvah through rape?
• Re: MZ and animals
• Re: Orthodoxy and return of land
• Re: Slap in the Face
• Re: Slap in the face
• nogeah
• Re: Mazal Tov
• RE: Slap in the Face
• RE: Orthodoxy and return of land
• RE: Orthodoxy and return of land
• Re: Slap in the Face
• kollel
• Pragmatism
• Re: kollel
• Re: Net Access
• Women and "mayim achronim"
• Re: Orthodoxy and return of land
• Re[2]: Moshe Rabbeinu's Free Will

On 26 Dec 99, at 23:37, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M wrote:

> > > I do not believe that was or is part of the basis for their position.
> There
> > > is no way to know if a peace is true or not when you sign the dotted
> line.
> > > One is permitted to risk an operation that is experimental and
> potentially
> > > fatal if it may save the patient's life (a famous teshuva by R' Chaim
> Ozer
> > > Grodzhenski in the Achiezer). Hu ha'din b'nidon didan.
> >
> > I don't have that tshuva in front of me, but I think the Achiezer only
> > permitted such an operation after exhausting all other alternatives.
> > That is definitely NOT what happened b'nidon didan. We took an
> > organization that was on its deathbed and revived it, and now we
> > continue to go forward in a "process" in which it has yet to fulfill a
> > single commitment. Something is VERY wrong here.
> >
> 
> I do not think that is an accurate assessement of RCO's position. See
> Achiezer 2:16:6. See also the massive collection of poskim in Nishmas
> Avrohom YD 155 p. 46 and on.

I will bli neder try to look these up.

> But, once you have raised the issue, I am curious: What, indeed, is the
> alternative? It seems to me that the "Right Wing" would actually want to do
> away with the Arabs peshuto k'mashma'o. I certainly do not see any other
> alternative to what is happening. I am happy to be enlightened.

We COULD have thrown the Arabs out in 1967 - I don't think that's 
much of a secret. For example, the Mufti of Chevron came to 
Moshe Dayan in 1967 and said, "give us 24 hours to leave." 
Dayan's response, "no, we don't want you to leave." Lack of emuna 
IMHO....

But this is 1999, not 1967, and we can't throw them out. But we 
can encourage an indigenous leadership to form to replace the 
corrupt PLO, we can push the autonomy plan which Menachem 
Begin z"l envisioned which would have been accepted had the 
Arabs seen that there was no other alternative. Or we could bide 
our time the same way the Arabs are doing. We did not, in any 
event, have to pick the PLO up off its deathbed after it backed 
Sadam in the Gulf in 1991. BTW - the architect of that brilliant 
move is today a partner in a Washington DC law office - nothing 
like having the courage and conviction to live with your decisions 
<sarcasm noted>.

> > Also, it is my understanding of both RYBS zt"l and lehavdil bein
> > chayim lechayim ROY that they both hold that it is permitted to
> > give up land only to save lives of persons who might otherwise be
> > killed R"L in the event of war. It appears to me that either of them
> > would at least require some reasonable basis for at least having a
> > hava amina that giving up land would save lives - something which
> > has been sorely lacking up to now.
> >
> 
> It actually seems to me that lives are being saved now every day: There have
> been no major terrorist attacks, B"H, for several years, and soldiers are
> not getting killed in Yv'S or Azza either. 

I don't think you realize (nor do I think you could living in the US 
and only hearing CNN sound bites) the extent to which all of this is 
a faucet that Arafat turns on and off at will. He realizes now that the 
bus bombings in early 1996 - which were an attempt to force a 
quick "solution" - were a terrible miscalculation, because they 
brought about the downfall of Peres and the election of Netanyahu. 
So after that he learned to turn off the bombings. But the terrorist 
infrastructure is all still there. They have done nothing to uproot it. 
And Arafat still threatens us with war if he does not get what he 
wants, so he clearly has not given up that "option." All that is 
missing is our intelligence capabilities, which were dismantled 
when what has already been given to the PA was given to them. 

Doesn't it strike you as odd that we are discussing "peace" yet 
everyone on the other side looks like they are preparing for war?

But, my understanding of RYBS and
> ylctv"a ROY's position, is that they held that we follow the opinions of the
> "kefeila arama'a" here, i.e., the generals. So, it seems to me that Barak is
> probably as big an expert as anyone.

Barak will say and do what he has to do to stay in office. As will 
any other general who wants to have a political career after the 
army. You lived here long enough to know how each of the big 
parties courts every general in the matcal (general command) who 
retires. They change their positions based upon which party they 
are trying to fit into.

Barak has been out of the army for several years now, and the 
advice he receives is based upon whom he keeps around him.

I should also note that neither RYBS zt"l nor lehavdil ben chayim 
lechayim ROY has paskened that in THIS situation we can (and 
should) give up land. RYBS was answering a limited question - is it 
permissible to give up land in order to save lives? I suspect that 
most of us would answer that question in the affirmative. ROY may 
well pasken on this question with respect to the Golan. 

> > > > And there is *no* evidence that the PA is interested in such a peace.
> >
> > Do I gather that RYGB has no answer to this contention?
> >
> 
> I have no illusions about the PA. It seems to me that Barak et al calculate
> that greater Israeli security and morale is served by retreating from areas
> of Arab populace regardless of the hostility of those populations. I think
> this is a legitimate reckoning (which may be wrong, but may be right).

But if it's wrong then you've put an awful lot of life in danger R"L for 
the sake of morale....

> > Where in Nedarim 54?
> >
> 
> I do not know what I was thinking! Sorry! AZ 52b!

I'll bli neder look at it when I get home tonight. Note that the 
Mikdash David that I cited (which you did not answer) cites the 
Ramban in that sugya....

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

Is it just my ignorance, or does the study ignore the existence of a yeitzer
hatov?

To put it in less religious terms: He discusses the value added to communal
membership, and therefore can discuss the cost of expressing that membership
in relation to it.

However, he overlooks the fact that many people spend money to assuage their
conscience -- IOW, just to do what they believe to be the right thing.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 27-Dec-99: Levi, Shemos
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 90a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Yes.

What do I need to explain?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il>
To: Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M. Bechhofer <sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>;
<avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 4:13 AM
Subject: Re: Slap in the Face


> On 26 Dec 99, at 21:45, Yosef Gavriel and Shoshanah M wrote:
>
> > > Yes,  of course we agree that we should behave with the highest
standards
> > of
> > > derech eretz and ahavas habrios in all these issues. We should also
expect
> > > the same standards from our Arab cousins if we are truly together in a
> > peace
> >
> > I am really not concerned with our Arab cousins (that much). I am
concerned
> > more about our image in the eyes of our Jewish brethren.
>
> Do I understand you to be saying that we should give up land in
> Eretz Yisrael, because the alternative is to look bad in the eyes of
> our non-fruhm brothers? That if we don't give up land, we will violate
> their secular humanist standards of decency and morality, and
> that's a bad thing to do? You want to explain?
>
> -- Carl
>
>
> Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
> Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
> Telephone 972-2-625-7751
> Fax 972-2-625-0461
> mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
> mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
>
> Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
> Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
> Thank you very much.
>

The Daf Yomi is now learning Yevamos

See below for citaton from Yevamos 8b that the mitzva can be performed
against the will of the woman.

My questions:

1.Is this not rape? 

2.Is it permitted in this case?

3. Is it not a mitzva habab'aveira? 

4.Would the rapist (the Yavam) be obligated to pay monetary
compensation that a rapist pays?

5.Is he forbidden to divorce her as in the case of a rape?

Reuven
_________________________________________________________________

               THE DAFYOMI DISCUSSION LIST

      brought to you by Kollel Iyun Hadaf of Yerushalayim
          Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
                  daf@dafyomi.co.il

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> 
> 1) PERFORMING YIBUM AGAINST THE WILL OF THE WOMAN
> QUESTION: The Gemara says that we learn from a verse, "v'Yibmah" (Devarim
> 25:5), that one may perform Yibum against the will of the woman. RASHI (DH
> Ba'al Karchah) explains what this means, and says that it means that even 
if
> the brother marries her against her will, he is Koneh her "with regard to
> Yerushah (inheriting her possessions), Tum'ah (being Metamei for her if he 
is
> a Kohen), and with regard to all matters, she is his wife."




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In a message dated 12/27/99 10:33:53 AM US Central Standard Time, 
cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il writes:

<< I don't know of such a medrash, but in a Hilchos Nida shiur that I 
 heard yesterday, the magid shiur cited a Gra which says that 
 where people are bored because they have no restraints on their 
 desires (and therefore become bored with normal outlets of 
 expressing them) they turn to MZ, and when they become bored 
 with MZ they turn to animals.
  >>

There's a point when medical science comes to play here. The notion that MZ 
represents Stage One Boredom, and animals Stage Two Boredom, is not Torah. 
It's a behavioral observation by someone who perhaps was not trained to make 
such observations accurately. What we are and what we do sexually is more a 
question of science (albeit rather primitive science, at this stage) than of 
ancient parables or pseudo-halachic poshuting. Why are we so afraid to 
recognize the lomdus of this subject and open ourselves to something more 
appropriate than Midrash?

David Finch

In a message dated 12/26/99 10:49:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< 
 Perhaps. I am resigned to what I perceive to be inevitable. I am no longer
 sure it is a bad thing, and that we should beseech Hashem to help avoid it
 occuring.
 
 Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
 Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
 http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
 
 ----- Original Message -----
 From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
 To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
 Sent: Sunday, December 26, 1999 7:23 PM
 Subject: Re: Orthodoxy and return of land
 
 
 > RYGB wrote <<< Can you prove that granting them the inevitable statehood
 > ... >>>
 >
 > I presume that the honored rabbi had intended to refer to an "almost"
 > inevitable statehood. Even if the probability of a political event is
 > very high, I think we should avoid absolutist language unless one has
 > given up on Hashem's help. >>


This entire exchange is a reflection of the political orthodoxy that orthodox 
Rabbi's are presumed to hold. I respect RYGB for holding to his highly 
nuanced views, and I would say I probably agree with most of them. Since 
those frum people on the right in the political spectrum will dismiss my 
qualified support for the peace process as typical Galus American naivete, I 
have found it fruitless to try and use any kind of logic, military knowledge, 
historical knowledge, moral acknowledgment of the ways in which we have 
served the Palestinians poorly, both in deed and attitude, or cold blooded 
political analysis to prove my point. Part of being an adult, and part of 
being a mature political entity, is the realization that we don't necessarily 
get everything to which we think we are entitled right away, and that 
sometimes we have to take steps back to go forward.
On the other hand, my heart aches every time I think of giving back the land, 
and I get angry when I contemplate some kind of Palestinian political entity 
in the Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem. But I will not stand in the way 
of it if I think it is the best possible solution for the time.

Jordan      

In a message dated 12/27/99 3:00:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
atwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< What about Emunah in HKBH? What about doing Ratzon HaShem?
 
 What does one do when "intellect" is in conflict with Emunas HaShem or
 Ratzon HaShem?
  >>
 Just who is to determine what the Ratzon Hashem is? I, for one, am loth to 
leave the determination in the hands of the WIG.

Jordan   

In a message dated 12/27/99 8:20:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
micha@aishdas.org writes:

<< Barak is also a nogei'ah bidavar, as his political ambitions are tied to a
 particular result. >>
 Well, that is a little tricky. He could've made the argument another way, 
and used that for his political goals.

Jordan 

> Barak is also a nogei'ah bidavar, as his political ambitions are tied to a
> particular result.
> 
Rav Ovadiah Yosef is supposed to come out witha psak about returning
the Golan even though that impacts on the negotiations between Shas
and Barak over budget issues. Ovbiously Rav Yosef does not feel
that every interest results in a negiah badavar.

Supposedly Barak takes his positions because he honestly believes in
them. You are essentially saying that Barak thinks all his deals are
bad for Israel but is for them anyway because it is better for political
future, though I assume he could have joined Likud had he wanted to.

Eli Turkel

In a message dated 12/27/99 10:43:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
rabbij@rabbijablon.com writes:

<< With gratitude to Hashem, we are excited to announce the birth of our 
daughter, Shirah Emunah Jablon.  She was born at about 2:15 a.m., 18 Tevet, 
5760...December 27, 1999.  Imma, Shirah, Abbah, and big sister Leah are all, 
thank G-d, doing well.>>


Mazel Tov to all!!!

Jordan 

>   >>
>  Just who is to determine what the Ratzon Hashem is? I, for
> one, am loth to
> leave the determination in the hands of the WIG.
>

My comment on Ratzon Hashem was in the following context:

>> [R' Bechhofer said:]
>> Yes, we need to be holistic. But intellect over all else.
>> And, intellect
>> should dictate that there are certain battles that are not
>> going to produce the desired result.

> [I replied:]
> Like the conquest of Eretz Yisrael? Yericho?
> What about Emunah in HKBH? What about doing Ratzon HaShem?
> What does one do when "intellect" is in conflict with Emunas HaShem or
Ratzon HaShem?

I was questioning the absolute reliance on intellect that R' Bechhofer was
proposing -- especially in light of the many times in Jewish history where
having Emunah or doing Ratzon Hashem succeeded where intellect would would
have predicted failure.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

> Part of being an adult, and part of
> being a mature political entity, is the realization that we
> don't necessarily
> get everything to which we think we are entitled right away, and that
> sometimes we have to take steps back to go forward.

Which is *exactly* the problem here -- the PA doesn't qualify as a mature
political entity by your definition -- and children are unreliable and
unpredictable.

[HUMOR MODE ON: The following is a joke]

and unable to make a kinyan.

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

[a very non-PC opinion follows.]

My Anthropology professor used to say that the biggest mistake an
anthropologist can make is to look at, interact with, and interpret a
society through the bias of the observers society.

The biggest mistake we can make in this situation is to assume that the Arab
Mind is identical to the Western Mind -- that we think alike, feel alike,
and that we respond to circumstances in the same way.

We don't.

Ask any Sephardic Israeli with first-hand experience of living in an Arab
culture -- and be prepared for a *long* discourse on the subject.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

In a message dated 12/27/99 12:56:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
atwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< I was questioning the absolute reliance on intellect that R' Bechhofer was
 proposing -- especially in light of the many times in Jewish history where
 having Emunah or doing Ratzon Hashem succeeded where intellect would would
 have predicted failure >>
 
I see. 

> 
> When I was in Sha'alvim, the Rosh Yeshiva told us that he once asked RSZ 
> Auerbach if he was required to maintain in the Sha'alvim Kollel avreichim 
> that would put in their "9-5", but were not exemplary scholars nor destined 
> to become such. RSZA answered in the affirmative, that in our day and age it 
> is necessary to provide near universal access to Kollel (to those who seek 
> it) "kdei she'la'rechov yihyeh tzura".
> 
> Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
> 
The more relevant question is given a finite resource of money what to do.
If everyone can learn in kollel wihout any restrictions why not?

Eli Turkel

Just a few notes crossing various threads.

I believe in living in the present.

I strongly believe in understanding the past, and learning lessons from it but 
not living in the past.

As such I think it is our AVODAH to make the best of what the situation IS 
rather than engaging in "quixotic" behavior.

Therefore:

1) I agree with RYGB.  A Palestinian state is inevitable, so why not make the 
best of it?  

2) Yeshivos should deal with the society as it IS not as they would like to TO 
BE or HAVE BEEN

3) As an affluent society, it is likely that "Simcha"s will have 
excessess, even if we would prefer more moderate diplsyas of weath. 

4) The pre-shoah civiliatoinzt is gone. We should serve Hashem as Americans or 
Israeils etc. of 5760 with all of its plusses and minusses and not attempt to 
recreate the good old days of opressive czars and rampant poverty.  Why not 
serve Hashem besincha mrao kol?  is Vaysihman yeshurun Vayivot inevitable?   


5)  Peace will come about in the Middle East when Jews realize they are Jews and
that Arabs are Arabs.  Peace is not simpmly cessation of hostilities, it's the 
realization and accpetance of the situation and dealing with it.  V'ananachnu be
Sheim Ahshem nazkir would indicate to us that the FIRST line of defense is the 
Ribbono Shel Olam and calling upon His help is our primary tactic. But I also 
believe hashem helps those who help themselves.  our hishtadlus on ALL fronts - 
peace and war - should be executd with vigor and with siyatto dishmaya.

My 2 kopecks
Rich Wolpoe

In a message dated 12/27/99 1:00:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
turkel@math.tau.ac.il writes:

<< 
 The more relevant question is given a finite resource of money what to do.
 If everyone can learn in kollel wihout any restrictions why not?
 
 Eli Turkel >>
Perhaps because work and involvement in community affairs outside of the bet 
medrash has a redemptive value.

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

In the meantime, if only a "kosher" ISP is availabe, we need not worry about 
where they surf - at home.

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>
	Once ISP's become free,  why should kids use the kosher one if they can 
use whatever they want?  

<snip>

Gershon

In vol.30 #49 Joseph geretz wrote:
    << Rebbetzin Feinstein informed me that women do not wash
Mayim Acharonim >>
    Does this mean that we can actually learn halacha from the statements and 
actions of the wife of a Gadol?? (sorry, can't help beating this horse, but 
you can't have it both ways--if you're learning Mayim achronim from a 
Rebbetzin, why not hair covering or any other halacha?)
    David I. Cohen

In a message dated 12/27/99 11:56:13 AM US Central Standard Time, 
atwood@netvision.net.il writes:

<< The biggest mistake we can make in this situation is to assume that the 
Arab
 Mind is identical to the Western Mind -- that we think alike, feel alike,
 and that we respond to circumstances in the same way.
 
 We don't.
  >>

Maybe another mistake is to assume that the classic Jewish mind -- the mind 
of the Sages, of the Chazal, of the medieval Gedolim -- is in any sense 
"identical" to the Western mind, either. 

Western influences on Jewish thought have a mixed track record. There's 
Rambam, on the one hand, but on the other there's also the multitudes of 
reformist movements in Germany and elsewhere in Europe during the 18th and 
19th centuries. (Even with Rambam, the Rabad had a point or two.) Perhaps the 
philosophical and emotional roots of the Arab outlook (even the Palestinian 
outlook) are more cogent to EY's situation than, say, Western 
political-economic theory. Maybe our Arab cousins remain closer to the roots 
of emotional Semitic reality than, say, a European-educated Jew.

Sometimes the Romantic eye sees more than the "realist." T.E. Lawrence's 
"Seven Pillars of Wisdom" is not irrelevant reading matter in this debate.

David Finch

My DRUSH wrt to Moshe Rabbeinu is as follows:

The sneh symbolizes humility.

The fire symoblizes Hashem (eish ochlah)

She'eino Ukkal symbolizes that one will not get burnt if one is usfficiently 
humble

Moshe Rabbeinu was selected as the mouthpiece of Hashem due to his ability to 
have extreme ego-lessness.  He was able to be so free of his own ego and to 
submit his retzon to hashem w/o contaminating it with his own version of what 
Hashem meant (contrast this with this dvar torah which is contaminated with my 
version of what happened as opposed to what actually happened <smile>)

Was Moshe Rabbeinu CAPABLE of having an ego?
YES!

Did he always succeed in keekping his ego out of the way?
YES and NO

IOW the few exceptions (mei merivo and Vayiktozf Moshe al pekudei hechoyil) are 
those exceptoins that prove the rule that Vayaas Moshe kaasher dibeir Eilov 
Hashem.  That asie from noted excpetions, Moshe kept his own ego in check, and 
that the Torah ntoes those ecxcptions to tell us that otherwise it is straight 
Dvar Hashem w/o Moshe "tainting" it. 

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Moshe Rabbeinu's Free Will 

>  His bechira was only deprived him when he acted as "mouthpiece".

That's what I first thought, but it really doesn't seem to fit the Meshech 
Chachmah's words (aside from Ikkar Chaser Min haSefer). Ayyein Sham.

*********************


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