Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 195

Friday, December 17 1999

• RE: Lechaim - Humor Alert
• RE: mechiras chometz
• Mechiras Chometz
• Re: Avodah V4 #191
• Yossel
• Re: problem kids
• Re: Avodah V4 #191
• Re[2]: Lechaim - Humor Alert
• RE: Avodah V4 #148 Consumption
• Re: expenses / Israel
• Re: Daily Lift #451 Feel Spiritual Pleasures
• alcohol in our shuls
• Minors and kiddush wine
• secular studies, was Maarava
• YH for MZ
• Re: RCA pre-nup
• Re: Mishkav Zachar
• Re: Avodah V4 #194

> 
> Im lo aaleh es yerusholoyim on rosh simchosi
> 
> Obviously the depressing alcohol is to inhibt too much Simcho 
>  so - zeicher 
> lechurban - we make a lechaim to depress ourselves apporpriately
> 

That's an interesting conjecture.

Akiva



===========================
Akiva Atwood                 
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

> 	It didn't make sense to me either,  and I tried to talk 
> him out of it. 
> It is his mishugas.  

He obviously *didn't* consider it a chefzet marubah.

AFAIK, the original intent of the mechirah was for merchants *only*. 

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood                 
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274  

Akiva Miller asserted that we do not sell the choimetz in the keilim as the
chometz a balu'a be-dofnei ha-keilim is less than a kezayis.  I was
surprised at the lack of a reaction to what I recall is an incorrect
asssertion, possiblt on two grounds.  First, without doubt, I have seen a
shtar mechira that specifically includes chometz in the "walls" of the
vessels and utensils. Second, why would the general principle of "chatzee
xhiur assur min haTorah" not apply.  Corroboration of either position is
invited.

NW

I am fascinated by the responses this issue continues to generate.

Aaron Berger wrote
>
> The author, below, is engaging in an exercise of semantics. He may be
right
> that a technical definition of ***** refers to inclinations. The issue at
> hand however deals with actions. I can't imagine Avodah would devote this
> much space to, say, those people who would LOVE to not put up a Mezuzah..
>
No, the issue at hand is not actions but the distinction between
inclinations and actions.  That is
why a term in Hebrew which refers to a toevah is not preferable to a term in
another language
which is broader and more neutral, and is thus more "naki".  I can only
assume that RYGB
understands the term differently than its common usage.

Much more significantly, it is appalling to see the cruel comparison between
those who struggle
daily with powerful desires that they conquer, often at great personal cost,
and the inanity of
one "who would LOVE to not put up a mezuzah".  There are many shomrei
mitzvah who do
not yield to desires they wish they did not have but which are powerful and
are driven,
at least in part, by forces far more powerful than most other taavos.  Our
contempt for those
who engage in toevos should not blind us to the struggle of the large number
who fight back
with enormous emotional expenditures.

HM asked
>
> Dr. Press you raise an interesting point.
> Homosexuality in the orthodox community  is virtually
> ignored by the Orthodox media.  It's kind of swept
> under the carpet as a public issue.  How pervasive is
> it in the Frum community>

There is no reliable data on the frequency of the problem in our world so I
can't respond.
There is no question, however, that it is a significant problem.  Even if
the figures were
similar to those obtained in the best epidemiological studies, we would
expect at least
12,000 -20,000 primary cases and many more with bisexual inclinations.
Those of us
who deal clinically or as counselors with our community are aware of the
many young
men who suffer and struggle. (Obviously, the problem is much more severe for
men than
women.)  In the years I've been in this business I have dealt with persons
from every major
yeshiva in New York and its environs with these problems.  Sophisticated
mashgichim
confront these issues all the time.  Again, I emphasize that we are dealing
primarily
with those who avoid chiyuvei misa despite having certain taavos.

Melech

M. Press, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology, Touro College
mpress@ix.netcom.com or melechp@touro.edu

Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com> writes:
: AFAIK none of them were Yeshu Hanotzri, which is a translation of Jesus of
: Nazareth, an appellation with Christian roots.

Actually, JofN is a mistranslation of Yeishu haNotzri. Of Nazareth would be
"haNotzarti". They recognize this as well, which is why some surmized he was
a nazir; but that's a worse fit: it would be "haNazir" (no?) and would assume
that a tzadi was transliterated identically to a zayin.

There was a Notzri movement in Shim'on ben Shetach's day, who were awaiting
the "notzeir" (seedling), the "tzemach David".

: The person referred to in the (uncensored) Gemara is Yeshu only,

I don't believe this to be true. It's certainly not R' Shteinzaltz's opinion,
as his deceonsored gemara has it as Yeshua haNotzri. Both words, and with
an ayin at the end of the first one.

:                                                                  which I was
: taught,  stands for <Y>imach <S>hemo <V>ezichro. 

I was taught that too, but I think it's reverse engineering.

Yeishua was a major figure in Binyan Bayis Sheini. It would be unsurprising
to me to learn that amongst the Notzrim (the pre-Xian movement) there were
many Ezras, Nechemias, Yeishua's, etc...

-mi

PS: Let's try to keep this conversation about the Gemara, and not let it drift
into a discussion of Christianity. So far I'm the most guilty of teetering on
that edge.

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 16-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 84b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

:> Chareidim teach their kids insularity as part of core Yiddishkeit. In the
:> minds of too many, if the insularity doesn't work, the whole unit goes out
:> the window, including observing halachah.

:> The dati le'umi parent is teaching a Yiddishkeit that includes Zionism. But
:> (for whatever reason) Zionism is failing to grab people's hearts in this
:> decade. In an era of post-Zionism, perhaps the Yiddishkeit as a whole is seen
:> as part of that failing antiquated system.

: Are these both theories, or do you have proof that this is what is 
: behind it?

Theories, but they're only based on the two or three such cases I know -- which
means one or two stories behind each paragraph. So, while it could be that
I know of isolated cases, I'm inclined to believe that what I'm writing about
it a factor.

I do know a few adults who left the chasidishe community as teens and returned
to other forms of frumkeit years later, as well as a couple of former chareidim
who are now mod-O after being unobservant in their teens.

Yes, there's a strong role of stam teenage rebelliousness. Making it all one
piece means that rebelling also will be all-or-nothing.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 16-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 84b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In a message dated 12/17/99 1:14:57 AM US Central Standard Time, 
mpress@ix.netcom.com writes:

<<  the issue at hand is not actions but the distinction between
 inclinations and actions.  

Our
 contempt for those
 who engage in toevos should not blind us to the struggle of the large number
 who fight back
 with enormous emotional expenditures.
  >>

Perhaps the size of our contempt has contributed to the enormity of the 
emotional expenditures. Sexual orientation is not a mere "inclination," and 
the task of preventing such an orientation from turning into "action" would 
be overwhelming even in a supportive community.

Psychosocially, there's a reason we pick on homosexuals more than we do, say, 
philanderers, tax cheats, and other fallen members of our community. I don't 
believe this reason has much to do with any hierarchy of sin in Torah. 
Perhaps Dr. Press could address this point as well.

David Finch

Let's save it for Purim when such Torah will be taken more seriously! <smile>

Rich W.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


> 
> Im lo aaleh es yerusholoyim on rosh simchosi 
> 
> Obviously the depressing alcohol is to inhibt too much Simcho 
>  so - zeicher 
> lechurban - we make a lechaim to depress ourselves apporpriately 
> 

That's an interesting conjecture.

Akiva

--- "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> wrote:
> On 29 Nov 99, at 8:15, Akiva Atwood wrote:
> 
> 
> Yes, but $2000 tfillin at least fulfill a hiddur
> mitzva, which is zeh 
> Kaily v'anveyhoo, so I'm not sure I'd place them (or
> a $100 esrog for 
> that matter) in the same category as making an
> expensive wedding 
> or lehavdil buying a Ferrari.
 

What about a silver esrog pushke?  Hidur? Or
extravagant waste of money?

What about a silver Atarah for you Talis?

What about an expensive Kesubah executerd by an
artist/caligrapher as a piece of art?  Hiddur? 
Extravagance?    How many of us have any of the above?
 Should we sell them and give the money to education?

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

All of this bolsters my argument that the standard of
living (B'Gashmius) is greater in the US than in
Israel.

HM


--- "Carl M. Sherer" <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> wrote:
> On 29 Nov 99, at 5:40, Joelirich@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > In a message dated 11/29/99 3:22:36 AM Eastern
> Standard Time, 
> > shlomog@mehish.co.il writes:
> > 
> > << 
> >  Most haredi yeshivot I know of (high school and
> post-high-school) 
> >  collect $130-140 per month tuition (including
> dormitory).
> >  Private elementary school ("cheder") in the
> haredi community runs
> >  about $50 per child per month (with slight
> discounts for more than 
> >  one child).  I should add that the above relates
> to the Litvishe 
> >  community and I have no idea if the figures for
> the Chassidishe 
> >  community are different.
> >  
> >  Elementary and high school education for girls is
> free.  I do not know
> >  how much post-high-school "seminar" for girls
> costs.
> >  
> >  That is still quite an order of magnitude less
> than tuition in the U.S.
> >  
> >  Kol tuv,
> >  Shlomo Godick
> >   >>
> > It's interesting how our discussions always come
> full circle.  Are these 
> > lower costs in Israel due to relatively lower
> input costs (labor-teachers? 
> > Capital-buildings? ) or leverage (higher student
> teacher ratios?) or outside 
> > subsidies(Askanim? the State?). 
> 
> They're due to all of the above. Teachers here make
> less than 
> teachers in the States, although it is not of the
> order of magnitude 
> of other professions AFAIK. The buildings here are
> MUCH less 
> luxurious than those in the States. The leverage
> here IS much 
> higher - typical class size is 35-40 versus 20-25 in
> the States. And 
> the State heavily subsidizes most education here.
> 
> Then again, we pay a much higher tax rate than you
> do in the 
> States (50% + health tax + national insurance bring
> us up to 
> around 60% not counting the 17% VAT and on
> everything we buy 
> and high customs duties on most items) and we hit
> the highest 
> marginal brackets much more quickly than you do (we
> hit 50% at 
> about $4000 a month).
> 
> What are the societal implications of such?  
> 
> Too long to answer al regel achas. I will try to
> address it if people 
> are interested, but as usual it will be MNSHO :-) 
> 
> > It may be positively cultural differences allow
> the same educational result 
> > with fewer teachers) or negatively throw out
> troublemakers early on) 
> 
> Education is only compulsory here through eighth
> grade.
> 
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

--- richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> 
> A person can easily feel the pleasure of giving into
> negative 
> desires. When a person finds it difficult to
> overcome his desires, 
> it is because he lacks an equal feeling of pleasure
> in spiritual 
> matters. 
> 
> So to overcome negative desires, we need to feel the
> pleasure of 
> Torah study as a balance. That's why the prayer
> recited daily for 
> the mitzvah of Torah study asks to feel the
> sweetness of Torah 
> study. 

Freud called this phenomenon sublimation of the
libido.

HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

From: Zeliglaw@aol.com
Subject: re alcohol in our shuls

<<yain yotzae sod" (i.e sod = Torah).Regardless of one's perspective and 
mesorah of simchas Purim, where is the moreh heter for hefkerus ifor this

type of behavior on Simchas Torah?In Baltimore, alcohol is not permitted
at 
Shomrei Emunah.>>

	Anyone who has seen how talmidei chachomim are misyashvim beyaynam
mitoch simchas Purim will realize the positive power of ad delo yada. 
With the potential of positive power comes,  ze le'umas ze,  tremendous
potential for hefkerus. The use of alcohol by teenagers should only be
permitted in circumstances which allow for the positive and have
sufficient oversight by  *responsible*  adults to prevent the negative. 
This is,  unfortunately, exceedingly rare;  in its absence tov mimenu
hahe'edr.

	Yesh shoseihu vetov lo,  yesh shoseihu verah lo.  

	Apologies for the transliterations.

Gershon

From: DFinchPC@aol.com
Subject: Re: Minors and kiddush wine

<<This sounds pretty suspicious to me. I'm not aware of any X-tian 
denominations in which the use of alcohol is a "big no-no." I am aware of
a 
couple of denominations in which alcohol greases almost every
non-liturgical 
religious function on their calendar. Ever see the sweet table at a 
non-Jewish celebration? A few crackers, some cheese, little puffy trafe 
snacks passed around on a tray, and an incredible variety of hard liquor
and 
beer.>>

	The fact that goyim drink like,  well,  a goy,  is not at issue.  The
point is that the drinking has no religious component.  The refreshments
are not part of the celebration,  but incidental to it.  The proper
analogy would be abuse of sacramental wine or,  lehavdil elef alfei
havdolos,  kiddush or havdolo.
	
	Having said that,  we need to distinguish between a kiddush and the
weekly meeting of what has been come to be called the kiddush club.

Gershon

Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:35:35 -0500
From: "Zuckerman, Jeffrey I." <JZuckerman@CM-P.COM>

<<Last motzei Shabbos, as part of his explanation as to why secular
studies are unnecessary and a waste of time, a student at Marava told me
that the Chazon Ish (or perhaps the Steipler -- my informant was not
sure)
personally, physically guided the hands of a surgeon as the surgeon
performed brain surgery.  The surgery, of course, was successful.  Does
anyone know of a reliable source for this story?>>

	I think a major measure of exaggeration has probably crept into this
story.  Be that as it may,  doesn't the fact that the protagonist needed
to work through the surgeon argue for,  rather than against secular
studies?

Gershon

Without passion, let us note some issues re YH as pertain to our discussion
here.

1. Many  types of licentious "normal" behavior are called "to'eivah" or
"ma'aseh Eretz Kena'an" in the Torah.
2. I believe the term often interchangable with MZ in the Talmudic
literature is "ba'al hana'a".
3. Whatever the catalyst, this Yetzer Ha'Ra is certainly a "ta'avah".
4. This is in contradistinction to the YH that underlies a recalcitrant
husband - that is "kin'ah".
(According to R' Tzadok and others, BTW, a more severe shortcoming.)
5. Perhaps the YH underlying miserliness has a different catalyst, but it is
also a "ta'avah" - "*ohev* kesef" (indeed, the word itself, kesef, me'lashon
kissufim). Of course, chemdas mammon does not immediately lead to chiyuvei
missa, but down the line...

Do we agree on these points?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org


----- Original Message -----
From: M. Press <mpress@ix.netcom.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: Avodah V4 #191


> Aaron Berger wrote
> >
> > The author, below, is engaging in an exercise of semantics. He may be
right
> > that a technical definition of ***** refers to inclinations. The issue
at
> > hand however deals with actions. I can't imagine Avodah would devote
this
> > much space to, say, those people who would LOVE to not put up a
Mezuzah..
> >
> No, the issue at hand is not actions but the distinction between
inclinations and actions.  That is
> why a term in Hebrew which refers to a toevah is not preferable to a term
in
> another language which is broader and more neutral, and is thus more
"naki".  I can only
> assume that RYGB understands the term differently than its common usage.
>
> Much more significantly, it is appalling to see the cruel comparison
between
> those who struggle daily with powerful desires that they conquer, often at
great personal cost,
> and the inanity of one "who would LOVE to not put up a mezuzah".  There
are many shomrei
> mitzvah who do not yield to desires they wish they did not have but which
are powerful and
> are driven, at least in part, by forces far more powerful than most other
taavos.  Our
> contempt for those who engage in toevos should not blind us to the
struggle of the large number
> who fight back with enormous emotional expenditures.
>

It is very easy to cure the problem. But the RCA hasn't.  Rabbi's are not
lawyers and are not aware of the problem when they use the agreement.  They
are thereofre unwawre that they need to add that page not supplied by the
RCA
From: <BDCOHEN613@aol.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 8:53 PM
Subject: RCA pre-nup


> >>From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
>     Subject: Re: RCA pre-nup
>
> >>There is no case per se.  Having seen the form, I know that it is
invaid.
> >>NY case law requires that all agreements about the res marriage be
executed
> >>in a "form acceptable to be recorded as a deed."  They must have  an
> >>acknowledgement page.  The form promulgated by the RCA contains no such
> >>form.
>
>     That would seem to be a very minor problem that could easily be solved
by
> appending an acknowledgement page (or other such notary statement) to the
> form. A good suggestion that you should forward to the RCA.
>     By the way, In Connecticut, any attorney is a "commissioner of the
> Superior Court" authorized by law to take acknowledgments and oaths like a
> notary.  Should be very easy for a couple to execute.
>     David I. Cohen
>

RMB <micha@aishdas.org> writes (v4, n193):
<<Note it says he IS a ben olam haba, not just that he could still be a
ben
olam haba. I would take this to mean that kevishas hayeitzer is itself
a
zechus. So even if there's no issur in having ta'avos for issur, it
would
appear there's value in pursuing their elimination.>>

I agree 100%.  R. Yitzchok Zirkind, however, explained to me his
understanding which is that since the gemara says "lo hirher ba
mei'ursa" we are to understand that this machshava was in fact NOT a
yetzer for the person.  Since the gemara says that dreams are our
"hirhurei lev" this "s'tirah" implies that this is not a regular dream,
but rather a siman; that siman is that he is a ben olam haba (I hope I
did justice to his pshat).  I think that is a very interesting approach,
but, IMHO, not the pashtus.  Firstly, I think there is a difference
between "hirher ba mei'ursa"- which I believe implies consciously, and
continuously thinking about her- and "hirhurei lev" which are more
"subconscious" or suppressed thoughts.  Therefore I don't think there is
a s'tirah between the ma'amarim.  Also, why would that s'tirah (if it
exists) be a siman of olam haba (all of the other dreams in that gemara
have p'sukim that explain their meaning)?  
I also believe that RMB's point is the intention of the Rambam and
Chinuch in the mitzvos to which RYZ referred.  They both emphasize that
the undesirable thoughts are those which occur repeatedly (tamid),
implying that the problem is not the predilection for them, but the lack
of attempt, or inability to control them.  This is brought out by the
analogy made between l'vavchem and eineichem.  You can't help it if
someone/thing not tzanua crosses your visual field, but you don't have
to look twice.  Similarly, you can't help it if a machshava comes to you
(and every person has predilections for different machshavos), but you
don't have to willingly perseverate on it with no attempt at controlling
it.
I do appreciate RYZ pointing out, however, that according to the Rambam
and Chinuch the pasuk does in fact create an issur machshava, and is not
simply a warning against a course of action and statement of fact. The
Chinuch, however, does phrase the issur almost like a gezeira d'oraisa,
since machshava meivi li'ydei ma'aseh, analogous to the way Avos D'Rabbi
Noson understands "lo sik'rvu." 

Good Shabbos, 
David Eisenman

Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 16:24:20 -0600 (CST)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject: Re: Lashon Hara l'Toeles (was Re: Agunos in Baltimore)

Carl Sherer <cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il> writes:
: I think that the issue here is one of toeles. I think that if you have
: the kavanah of trying to help out the aguna...

Need the to'eles directly involve the one you are speaking about?

What about just keeping a particular image of mesarvei get in the culture?
What
about using names so as to add power to a cautionary tale, to prevent others
from not acting until it's too late?

- -mi

- --
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 16-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 84b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.

------------------------------
A chazarah of hilchos lashin harah is always nice, but in this particular
instance it is needless.

In the case Micha introduced the husband had been put in chairim by a bais
din four years ago, (as was his second wife who traveled with him to Europe
to find an Orthodox' rabbi willing to be part of this nevalah and perform
chupah v'kiddushin), and a siruv had been issued against him a decade ago.
Furthermore, the case has been written up in The New York Times (and other
publications), and has been publicized over the WWW for years. One might be
able to stretch the halachah of divorim hayiduim b'alma to cover this
situation, although I am chazal had much wider publicity in mind when they
wrote of this concept.

Lastly, no mention was to be made of the circumstances of the delay, and in
fact none was made at the Kiddush made by the family the following week.
BTW, at that event several very prominent torah/halachic figures made
appreances to wish the ex-wife mazal tov.

*********************


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