Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 193

Thursday, December 16 1999

• RE: Avodah V4 #191
• Drinking "l'chayim" at the shul kiddush
• Re: Mechiras Chometz
• Re: MZ
• Re[2]: Minors and kiddush wine
• Re: Re[2]: Minors and kiddush wine
• re: Mechiras Chometz
• re: Minors and kiddush wine
• Re: consideration for your fellow-human
• RE: Minors and kiddush wine
• Re[2]: Minors and kiddush wine
• Lechaim - Humor Alert
• Yossele Pondrek (was re: humor alert)
• Yossele Pondrek- Toldot Yeshu
• Yossele Pondrek -- Toldot Yeshu
• Re: Yossele Pondrek -- Toldot Yeshu
• Yossele Pondrek -- Toldot Yeshu
• Divine Inspiration
• Vayigash
• Re: Silent vs Aspirated HAY in middle of Word
• Re: Episcopalians
• Dale Carnegie (was Vayigash)
• Mishkav Zachar
• mechiras chometz
• Yitamu Chata'im
• Re: problem children

> There is an old yiddish expression: ah goy is b'simcha vile
> ehr drankt. ah yid drankt vile ehr is b'simcha.

Alcohol is a depressant -- why someone b'simcha would want to take a
depressant...

Akiva


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

   << I think the whole question of drinking "l'chayim" at the shul kiddush
and 
<<the poor example it sets for our children needs to be examined. Any
takers?

I'll bite.   If you acknowledge that alcohol consumption exists, and can
even have a positive purpose in our lives then it is our jobs as adults to
show kids that alcohol can be used for purposes of Kedusha and Rayus.
Perhaps it's difficult for children to distinguish between a L'chayim at
Kiddush or at a Simcha or on Purim, and just plain drinking for the sake of
getting drunk. But unless you're suggesting that we make all alcohol issur,
under any circumstances, then one of the ways we combat the lure of alcohol
is to provide positive role models of responsible and controlled alcohol use
in the framework of our Jewish lives. 

Gad Frenkel

<<according to the Griz there is no chiyuv bedikah on anything that 
is less than a kezayis>>

There is a well-circulated story about the Griz that he stayed up very
late Erev Pesach going through all of his seforim to make sure there
were no crumbs.  I think it may even be mentioned in the Brisk
hagaddah.

Sincerely, 
David Eisenman

In Avodah 4#192, you wrote:
> If we're on the subject of the proper way of saying it, it is not
"Mishkav
Zachor", which would mean a perverse kind of memorial. <
No one (AFAIK) said the "Z" was "zachor" (with a cholam re the chaf) --
speaking strictly for myself, I believe it's "zachar"/"zochor" (with a
komatz re the chaf [and, needless to say, the zayin]).
> Even though "Mishkav Zachar" would seem logically, circumstantially, and
grammatically right, the correct term is "Mishkav Zachur", the second word
being an adjective describing the act, not a noun as the subject or
perpetrator of the act. The source is, I believe Succa 29. <
I'll b'li neder take a look at your source later, but I think we were using
a term which is based on p'sukim, e.g. Vayikra 18:22 (where normative
relations are explicitely described using the noun "eesha" rather than an
adjective).

All the best from
Michael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ

My non-frum relatives's point exactly!  

Well we all come from Connectiuct  -as does Yale - so maybe it's a local 
hashkofo <smile>

Question: does making things into big NO-NO's in fact entice people?
(kind of a Taoist action/reaction backfire...)

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Minors and kiddush wine 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/16/1999 12:34 PM


circa 1950 there was a study published at YU (Yale University) that ascribed the
lower affliction of alcoholism among Jews to the practice of the normal use of 
alcoholic beverage in the Jewish home, ie giving children wine to drink at kiddu
sh
etc. While among certain other religions the use of alcohol was a big no-no givi
ng
their adherents a delicious means of rebelling. 
take care and l'chaim
steve

On 16 Dec 99, at 12:56, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

> Question: does making things into big NO-NO's in fact entice people?
> (kind of a Taoist action/reaction backfire...)

I have a friend who used to let his kids smoke on Purim in the hope 
that it would keep them from taking up the habit (smoking 
generally) when they got older. I can't see it as helping.

OTOH, the idea of giving the kids a little wine at Kiddush appeals 
to me as possibly teaching them to use alcohol responsibly. 
Maybe because Kiddush is a mitzva while smoking is most 
definitely not.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

My understanding is that we sell only visible chometz stuck to the pots,
which is still stuck to the pots either through negligence or because it
was too difficult to remove.

But we do NOT sell the taste of chometz which was absorbed into the pots,
because it only forbidden to taste it and eat it, but not to own it. If
you want to get lomdish, bal yiraeh uval yimetzeh does not apply to the
bliah. Further, we do NOT sell the pots themselves, because it is a kal
vachomer from the bliah, and to avoid having to tovel them after Pesach.

Akiva Miller
___________________________________________________________________
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Rabbi Cohen wrote <<< I think the whole question of drinking "l'chayim"
at the shul kiddush and the poor example it sets for our children needs
to be examined. Any takers? >>>

If you are talking about the kiddush made in some shuls by certain groups
during the Haftara, I agree fully. But I think you are refering to the
large Kiddush attended by the entire congregation. If so, then I do not
see any problem.

If <<< drinking "l'chayim" at the shul kiddush >>> is a problem, then we
should be advocating the banning of all alcohol, period. But I never
noticed Jewish tradition ever taking that sort of attitude. Rather, it is
a *good* thing, but there is a time and a place for it, and a proper way
of drinking as well. Like a shot or two for kiddush!

If people are getting drunk, that is a bad example for our children. But
if we drink to get just a little light-headed, so that we can enjoy
Shabbos more -- isn't this what HaShem created it for to begin with?

Akiva Miller
___________________________________________________________________
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Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

In a message dated 12/16/99 12:04:19 PM EST, fbb6@columbia.edu writes:

> By now we may think that most gay people know they aren't the only one,

There are many frum Bochurim that no nothing of the outside world, Vtovoi 
Aleihem Bracha.

>  but isn't it cruel to try to deny someone the relief of knowing he isn't
>  the only one?

If and when one is known to have a problem, and it is the obligation of the 
Hanholas Hayeshiva etc. to have their eyes and ears open, he should be 
counseled, in private,  but that counsel and what is to be said then differs 
from person to person, the point I tried to make is, that we don't want to 
awaken and bring out something in one that without this knowledge would be 
Goveir on himself, (there is a Halacha against announcing ones Chatoim).

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind  

> if we drink to get just a little light-headed, so that we can enjoy
> Shabbos more -- isn't this what HaShem created it for to begin with?

AFAIK, the only wine HaShem *created* was the wine he put in the cave for
Lot to drink :-)

Everything else *we* had a role in. Maybe that was a nisayon (and maybe we
failed)?

Akiva

(Who *does* enjoy a small LeChayim at the shabbos meal between the fish and
the meat course...)


===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274

IF you make Kiddush al hakos and have that one drink it's lechayim!

if you are over-indulging it's lechayos - it becomes wild...

Rich Wolpoe 


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


If <<< drinking "l'chayim" at the shul kiddush >>> is a problem, then we 
should be advocating the banning of all alcohol, period. But I never 
noticed Jewish tradition ever taking that sort of attitude. Rather, it is 
a *good* thing, but there is a time and a place for it, and a proper way 
of drinking as well. Like a shot or two for kiddush!

If people are getting drunk, that is a bad example for our children. But 
if we drink to get just a little light-headed, so that we can enjoy 
Shabbos more -- isn't this what HaShem created it for to begin with?

Akiva Miller

Im lo aaleh es yerusholoyim on rosh simchosi

Obviously the depressing alcohol is to inhibt too much Simcho  so - zeicher 
lechurban - we make a lechaim to depress ourselves apporpriately

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Alcohol is a depressant -- why someone b'simcha would want to take a 
depressant...

Akiva

At a guess, this refers to the character mentioned in Gemara and 
medival sources as "Yeshu ben Pantera".  It's not entirely clear
if this is the same as Jesus in the NT

According to the medieval account in Toldot Yeshu, the betrothed 
Mary was raped by a Roman soldier named Pantera, yielding Yeshu,
a mamzer ben niddah (mamzer: she was betrothed to Joseph; ben
niddah: she was not yet married so had not gone to mikva).  Yeshu,
after being ruled such an outcaste, took up magic, learned the 
proper pronunciation of the Shem haMeforash, and used it to perform
miracles.

I can see how ben Pantera could become Pondrek, mixing Pantera with
Dreck.

What's the background of this sefer - Toldot Yeshu?

FWIW, I also heard there were several different Yeshu's in Shas and not all of 
them were Yeshu haNotzri (IOW some wer and some were not)

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Yossele Pondrek (was re: humor alert) 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/16/1999 3:08 PM


At a guess, this refers to the character mentioned in Gemara and 
medival sources as "Yeshu ben Pantera".  It's not entirely clear 
if this is the same as Jesus in the NT

According to the medieval account in Toldot Yeshu, the betrothed 
Mary was raped by a Roman soldier named Pantera, yielding Yeshu, 
a mamzer ben niddah (mamzer: she was betrothed to Joseph; ben
niddah: she was not yet married so had not gone to mikva).  Yeshu, 
after being ruled such an outcaste, took up magic, learned the 
proper pronunciation of the Shem haMeforash, and used it to perform 
miracles.

I can see how ben Pantera could become Pondrek, mixing Pantera with 
Dreck.

My understanding was that the person Christianity was founded around was a
composite figure. There were numerous false messiahs in that era. The
gemara's Yeshua haNotzri was a contemporary of Shim'on ben Shetach and
therefore Alexander Yannai -- far too early to match the Christian mythos,
or ben Pantera. I think there are messiah stories of at least 3 other
pseudo-messiahs.

The number of different messianic figures, and therefore the number of
different bodies of legends about said figures would explain the inconsistancy
between the gospels, and the motivation for writing them. Weaving the legends
into a consistant whole must have been complex.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 16-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

A clarification about the only Jewish thing in my email. I wrote:
:                 I think there are messiah stories of at least 3 other
: pseudo-messiahs.

What I meant to say was: I think the Gemara has (had) stories of false messiahs
under three other names. Which means it has a record of up to four movements
based on messianic figures, each of whom share elements with the subject
of the Christian mythos. I think the simplest assumption would therefore
be that Christianity started as a convergence of one or more of these
movements by unifying their "messiah"s into one.

There are also strong elements of Egyptian, Phoenician and Greek mythology
in their mythos as well, so if we're going to call him a composite, not all of
the elements in that composite actually boil down to historical figures.

-mi

It might have been complex to weave it ino one, but otherwise think about it; 
we'd have to go thru 4 Xmas's a year instead of just 1! That alone is inducement
enough to combine them into one story <smile>

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Yossele Pondrek -- Toldot Yeshu 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/16/1999 3:23 PM


My understanding was that the person Christianity was founded around was a 
composite figure. <snip>

The number of different messianic figures, and therefore the number of 
different bodies of legends about said figures would explain the inconsistancy 
between the gospels, and the motivation for writing them. Weaving the legends 
into a consistant whole must have been complex.

-mi

Hakol biydei Shamayim chutz miyir'as Shamayim. ("S" capitalized because HKBH
is clearly intended, not all the denizens of shamayim as a whole.)

Writing a fugue is not yir'as Shamayim. Therefore Hashem could well have a
hand in it.

I'd like to suggest a thought parallel to R' E Dessler's opinion about neis
vs. teva. He writes that the difference is subjective, all is from HKBH, nissim
are "merely" more obviously so because they don't match expectation. To a R'
Chanina ben Dosa, who has different expectations, things we'd consider nissim
were common. This is most clearly illustrated in R' Chanina's expectation that
vinegar could burn, followed by his daughter's ability to light vinegar.

What if the same was true of thought: that the difference between normal
thought and Ruach haKodesh was one of quantity, that they reside at ends of a
spectrum? This does appear to be the implication of the Rambam's description
of levels of nevu'ah in the Yad -- even secular thought could be from Shamayim.

Of course, the Rambam valued philosophical thought, and says little (nothing)
on the value of aesthetic. But I think the principle should still hold.

-mi
-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 16-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

I saw an important word of mussar in the name of this week's parashah.

When Yehudah needed to confront the Egyptian King's Second, he starts with
"Vayigash". Not argument, not yelling, not asserting his rights. By coming
closer to the other party.

A key theme in Dale Carnegie's books is that one is most likely to get what
one wants by seeing things from the other's perspective. Not talking about
why I want something, but why you have an interest in giving it to me.

That's a bit too utilitarian for my tastes. Middos tovos in order to "Win
Friends and Influence People" are merely thinly veiled selfishness. Besides,
in Yehudah's case things were complicated because he didn't realize who
he was really talking to. Yehudah got what he wanted, Binyamin's release,
but for totally different reasons -- motivations he didn't know the Mishneh
Lamelech had.

However, taking this approach to other people is a key part of bein adam
lachaveiro. It would tone down much of the arguing on this list.

If not lisheim mitzvah, at least to make the discussion run in more fruitful
channels.

Also a useful thought to keep in mind when dealing with the kid who just
colored on his bedroom walls.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 16-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Gil Student <gil.student@citicorp.com> comments:
:                                     I seem to remember that in the Mishnas 
: HaGra, printed in the back of the little blue Otzar Sifrei HaGra, there is 
: a different opinion.  In fact, I think that it says that both HAYS and 
: CHETS are exceptions and are never silent in the middle of a word.

Think about it. If a hei and ches were both silent even if only with a sh'va
nach, how would you know leehyos (usually mispronounced "liheeyos") from
leechyos?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 16-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@columbia.edu> writes:
: Most of the conversion-aiming Christians I've met have been evangelical
: Protestants but not Episcopalians or Catholics.

Catholics do missionize. Not only in third world countries, but even in the
US -- just less brazenly. For example, don't let a Jewish kid in the adoption
or foster care system get anywhere near Catholic Charities or some of the
other Catholic child-care agencies. They'll take a Jew from another agency as
a higher priority than a Catholic kid in their own.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 16-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

In fairness to Dale Carenegie he warns that insincere use of his techniques 
(what he might call today mainpulation) would backfire, and people would 
ultimately see thru phonies as merely snake-oil salesman.

Perhaps Carnegie meant that if you ACT nice to people, you will one day FEEL 
that way internally - lhavdil like the Chinuch's concept of Odom nif'al lefi 
maasov.

Most people indeed are nice shelo lishmo. Carnegie seems to ask people to be 
nice lishmo (ayein shom).  Perhaps being nice on the outside is a step towards 
the ultimate goal of being nice tocho k'boro

Rich Wolpoec

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

That's a bit too utilitarian for my tastes. Middos tovos in order to "Win 
Friends and Influence People" are merely thinly veiled selfishness. Besides, 
in Yehudah's case things were complicated because he didn't realize who
he was really talking to. Yehudah got what he wanted, Binyamin's release, 
but for totally different reasons -- motivations he didn't know the Mishneh 
Lamelech had.

<snip>
-mi

Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> writes:
: So, it doesn't really matter whether one believes
: homosexuality is a genetically predetermined behavior
: or that it is learned behavior.

Two questions: why the dichotomy? I would assume that, like most questions about
human behavior, the answer is both. To rephrase RHM into my position:
So, it doesn't really matter what one believes is the extent to which a given
person's homosexuality is a genetically predetermined behavior and to what
extent it is learned behavior.

:                                  G-d does not punish
: thought. 

Doesn't Hashem punish failure to perform chiyuvim? In which case, R' Bachya
meant that He does punish for not believing one of the Chovos Halvavos.

I noted here before that the Rambam seems to consistantly eliminate the
existance of thought-only chiyuvim: e.g. ahavas Hashem become a chiyuv to
learn about Him and the derech in which he runs creation; lo sachmod is
about not acting on the chemdah, and the only chiyuv discussed in Hilchos
Teshuvah is vidui.

And even l'fi haRambam, reward and punishment in Olam haBa revolves around
state of mind -- yedi'as Hashem. The actions are "only" the means of acheiving
that yedi'ah. In which case, how could he not attach a de facto consequence
(even if you eschew the term punishment for it) to hirhurei aveirah?

RDE <eisenman@umich.edu> comments:
: On the other hand, the gemara in the 9th perek of Brachos (57a) says
: that one who is ba al eishes-ish bachalom is a ben olam haba, but only
: on the condition that he does not in fact do it, and is not meharher
: about her during the day.  The pashtus is that the person has the innate
: desire (and perhaps tendency towards arayot) but does not act on his
: thoughts, and is therefore a tzaddik (the gemara on 55b states that our
: dreams reflect our hirhurei lev).

Note it says he IS a ben olam haba, not just that he could still be a ben
olam haba. I would take this to mean that kevishas hayeitzer is itself a
zechus. So even if there's no issur in having ta'avos for issur, it would
appear there's value in pursuing their elimination.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 16-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:57:04 +0200
> From: "Akiva Atwood" <atwood@netvision.net.il>
> Subject: RE: mechiras chometz

<< Is this being machir? The *heter* to sell chametz applies to cheptzed
Marubah>>

	It didn't make sense to me either,  and I tried to talk him out of it. 
It is his mishugas.  I got about $200 worth of booze for a vort which I
made a couple of weeks before Pesach,  and then tried to give back the
leftovers (yes, there are places where liquor is left over after a simcha
:-) ) and he refused to take them.

Gershon

Gil Student writes:
: I've seen people mention Beruriah's diyyuk of "yitamu chatayim" chatayim 
: velo chotim.  Am I the only one who is perplexed by this?  Doesn't
: chatayim mean people who are ingrained in sinning while chotim means
: people who occasionally sin?

If chot'im and chata'im refer to people, and chata'os to korbonos, what's the
plural for cheit?

I have a different question, though. What about "vichul oyvecha [oyvei amcha]
meheira yikareisu, vihazeidim meheira s'eakeir us-shabeir..."?

Also, the original form of Vilamalshinim appears to have had "v'chol haminim
kirega yoveidu" not "vichol harish'ah".

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 16-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

Gila Atwood <gatwood@netvision.net.il> writes in v4n183:
:                     However,  we've observed that babies with genetic
: defects are abandonned for a variety of reasons,  and that shiduch chances
: have become less of a concern.

While this may be true in Israel, this is not true in the greater NY area.

: In any such possible cases I strongly advocate genetic testing- (in cases
: where there is no question of consideration of abortion) simply so that the
: parents can prepare themselves for their new baby or arrange foster
: parenting as soon after the birth as possible. If this is not done, the baby
: can be waiting for weeks or months till foster parents appear, further
: retarding their development and happiness.

I also think it's a good idea so as to provide time to adjust to the idea.
Otherwise a time that should otherwise be filled with simcha becomes a period
of aveilus for the child they dreamed of having.

This is also not true in the US. Foster homes are found within a week. There
aren't Downs "border babies" residing in US hospitals. A bigger problem, one
I've harped on here in the past, is that if the child is abandoned instead of
freed in an orderly fashion, it won't be a Jewish agency that gets the job
of finding placement.

And because shidduch is still a major issue here, many couples don't want
the risk of the child popping up elsewhere in the community.

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 16-Dec-99: Chamishi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

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