Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 185

Tuesday, December 14 1999

• Re: Avodah V4 #182
• Re: Avodah V4 #183
• Re: Bate Din and Corruption
• Agunot: the solution
• Re: Bach
• Difference between Agunah and Prozbul
• Yiftach beDoro
• Re[2]: Homosexuality (was Re: what counts as suffering)
• Re: Text vs. Practice
• Re: women & funerals
• Homosexuals
• Agunah and Pruzbul
• Re: AGUNOHT--Another approach
• Re: Agunot: the solution
• Re: Text vs. Practice
• Re: AGUNOHT--Another approach
• Re[2]: Agunot: the solution
• Was re: AGUNOHT--Another approach, now: Chata'im v'lo Chotim
• Re: Homosexuality
• Re: Was re: AGUNOHT--Another approach, now: Chata'im v'lo
• attitudes toward omosexuality
• more youth at risk
• Re: xmas & Jesus
• re xmas & JEsus
• Re: problem kids

Rich Wolpoe refers to the two kinds of homosexuals (genetic and socialized)
and implies that therapys will help the one and not the other.  It is
important to reemphasize (as I did in my prior post) that even those whose
desires are unalterable can often be helped therapeutically to wish to, and
succeed, in controlling the behavioral form in which  these desires find
expression.

Melech
M. Press, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology, Touro College
mpress@ix.netcom.com or melechp@touro.edu

Rich Wolpoe asks HM if the prohibition of "Lo Sasuru" does not prohibit
wrong desires.  According to almost all commentators, it prohbits actions
that lead to wrong desires or to acting upon them.

Melech

M. Press, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology, Touro College
mpress@ix.netcom.com or melechp@touro.edu

Although for *zeh borer lo echad* one obviously picks "his" dayan,
the two chosen then jointly pick a third. However, it is assur for a
dayan to have "tzad hanaah" (Choshen Mishpat 7:12) and any dayan who
is appointed for $$$, "assur la'amod l'fanav" (Choshen Mishpat 8:1).

Josh

There is a perfectly legal, unobtrusive, inexpensive (one time cost
less than $500 that could be reused hundreds of times over again) that
is well-known by those who have worked for governmental intelligence
agencies. I guarantee, in writing, that 15 minutes after the button
is pushed, the "m'sarev get" will run to the nearest bet din :-) And all
this is without any physical violence of any sort ("kofin b'shotim" which
may engender a "get m'eusah"  Even Ha'Ezer 154:21).

Josh

I would be fascinated in knowing who said this what sources etc.

As a student of history, their is no question in my mind of the "zeitgeist" - 
"spirit of the times" phenomena.  EG, the great political upheavals of the 18th 
centruythat produced both the American and French Revolutions, the great 
industrial revultions of the 19th century, the electonic/computer revolotions, 
etc. or our own day...

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Bach 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate
Date:    12/13/1999 8:01 AM

>
I learned in chassidus that Hashem bestowed a great shefa of music on the 
world at the time of the classical era.  
<snip>

   Mrs. G. Atwood.

R' David Herskovic wrote: 
>  Explain why
>  societal problems some 2000 years ago could be solved in this way while
>  problems created after some cut-off date cannot.

Please explain how creating a "legal fiction" could solve the Agunah problem.
If anyone could come up with a way that fit within Halachah as neatly as 
Hillel's Prozbul fit within the laws of Ribbis, there would be little 
opposition.

Mordechai Torczyner
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf

David Herskovic wrote:
>What about 'eyn lekho
>  elo koyhen shebeyomekho' and 'yiftakh bedoyroy kishmueyl bedoyroy'?

That cite (Rosh HaShanah 25b) has to do with accepting a judge's authority, 
not with overturning earlier deRabanans, and it actually backfires on those 
who use it in this way.

This is the way that passage applies: You might think Hillel would have 
handled the Agunah situation differently, but R' Moshe and the Gedolim of our 
era have to be accepted as Shemuel ought to have been accepted.

Mordechai Torczyner
Cong. Ohave Shalom, YI of Pawtucket, RI http://members.tripod.com/~ohave
HaMakor! http://www.aishdas.org/hamakor Mareh Mekomos Reference Library
WEBSHAS! http://www.aishdas.org/webshas Indexing the Talmud, Daf by Daf

FWIW: "Frum" in quotes was merely pointing to the obvious contradiction implied 
by observing Torah and being involved with something anti-thetical to it.

It wasn't meant as either insulting nor as insensitive...

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
<snip>

putting "frum" in quotation marks is just insulting to people who do
their best to live observantly despite being rejected by their communities.



<snip>

janet

The Bach (no NOT JS) and the Gro made hagohos to Shas, but we would not consider
emending the acutal text (at least no at this point in history)

I feel somewhat the same about the siddur/machzor.  It's ok to footnote proposed
chnages, but I neven quite understood how academic shitos were able to override 
the siddur's text w/o respecting it as is.

Philip Birnbaum has a passionate defense of the Siddur as a Classic of Jewish 
literture and not subject to emendations by generations seeking a new apporach, 
etc. (and then irnocially he himself is "magiah" in the text <smile>)

I'm NOT saying the siddur/machzor should override the SA or poskim. OTOH, it 
shouldn't be ignored either.  The litrugy should - imho- be consiered another 
valid man d'omar in the universe of poskim...

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


<snip>
The Mechaber O"C 676:4, and every posek who appears on that se'if, 
describe a much shorter text, and several give the full wording. Pick 
your favorite posek, anyone from the Rosh (Shabbos 2:10, al pi Elya Raba 
676:8) to Rav Shimon Eider (Chap 3, note 118). They all talk about the 
text, but no one suggests that the siddurim should be corrected.

<snip>
Akiva Miller

I know in the Breuer Kehillo women were discouraged from attending the 
grave-site ceremonies.

I once heard that this goes back to a real life incidnet in which a pregnant 
woman wwas mapil - lo alienu - due to the "stress" of seeing the kever etc. 
While the source is a bit fuzzy to me I would not be surpised if a "takkono" was
made as a result of bad experience.

Rich Wolpoe

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Last night I went to a funeral in Petach Tikvah (which follows minhag 
yerushalayim) and the Chevrah Kadisha announced that women were not to 
go to the graveside funeral.
Does anyone know the origin of this custom and why?

Eli Turkel

Agreed.

And I would also suggest that those who suffer type 2 homosexuality (the kind 
that is more from "nurture" than from "nature") might therefore be mechuyav to 
seek therapy.  IOW Since they CAN be healed therefore they are obligated to do 
their best..

Rich Wolpoe


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________


Rich Wolpoe refers to the two kinds of homosexuals (genetic and socialized) 
and implies that therapys will help the one and not the other.  It is 
important to reemphasize (as I did in my prior post) that even those whose 
desires are unalterable can often be helped therapeutically to wish to, and 
succeed, in controlling the behavioral form in which  these desires find 
expression.

Melech
M. Press, Ph.D.
Professor of Psychology, Touro College 
mpress@ix.netcom.com or melechp@touro.edu

I already noted a similarity between resolving the problem of agunos and
the heter iska. It was literally centuries between the rise of banking,
of making a living by lending money for interest, and the heter iska. The
pruzbul as well, for that matter.

The Jewish legal system has been powerless for roughly 75 years now. Before
then, placing someone in cheirem actually meant he felt ostracized.

We have two major advantages today that should speed up the process: publishing
and communications. However, who knows how much faster things will run? Are
we expecting halachah not only to move faster than it ever had before, but
faster than it is capable of?

My semi-anonymous friend stated to me last Shabbos a sentiment recently
articulated by R' Blau. The problem with agunos is more about the disunity
of the halachic community than the presence of solutions. He is therefore
pessemistic about the effectiveness of a "Manhattan Project", since the
husband can always retreat into a kehillah -- or even just three hediotos
(which, remember, shares the same root as the English "idiot") who call
themselves a beis din -- that doesn't accept their solution.

What he suggested we need is literally a only handful of Rabbanim generally
recognized as gedolim to insist their daughter get a prenup before marrying
her off. Of course, to implement his suggestion, we need a prenup that would
be acceptable to even a single gadol from each stream of Orthodoxy.

Also note that these solutions tend to be about preventing currently single
women from ever becoming agunos. Not solutions to free current agunos.
Speaking of which, does anyone know what problems people have with R'
Willig's solution?

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 14-Dec-99: Shelishi, Vayigash
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 83b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         

On 14 Dec 99, at 3:11, Russell J Hendel wrote:

> However Halachah is very clear that there are EXCEPTIONS
> to the rule you mention. Those exceptions are
> ---workers
> ---widows
> A fortiori Agunoth.

I am going to assume that by this you mean a worker praying for 
the death of an employer who does not pay them on time and a 
widow praying for the death of her tormentors, and that the source 
in the Torah is ki im tzaok yitzk aelai, shamoa eshma tzakaso (Ex. 
22:22). 

The connection to Agunoth makes sense to me, but only because 
of the drash on the pasuk where it says, v'hayoo n'sheichem 
almanos and Rashi says that means that you will R"L be lose in 
battle, and therefore your wife will be a perpetual almanah.

But again, is this brought explicitly in the poskim, and if so, where?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

What is that deus ex machina?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <BACKON@vms.huji.ac.il>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 8:08 AM
Subject: Agunot: the solution


> There is a perfectly legal, unobtrusive, inexpensive (one time cost
> less than $500 that could be reused hundreds of times over again) that
> is well-known by those who have worked for governmental intelligence
> agencies. I guarantee, in writing, that 15 minutes after the button
> is pushed, the "m'sarev get" will run to the nearest bet din :-) And all
> this is without any physical violence of any sort ("kofin b'shotim" which
> may engender a "get m'eusah"  Even Ha'Ezer 154:21).
> 
> Josh
> 

Kenneth G Miller wrote:


> Namely... The text for Haneros Halalu which appears in the siddurim is
> very different than that which appears in the poskim. This refers to all
> siddurim that I've seen, including Ashkenaz, Chassidic, and Sefaradi
> siddurim, which have a text of close to 50 words. The only exception I've
> seen is the German siddurim, which have the text of the poskim.


36 words, I believe, in my siddur. In a number of siddurim I have.


> text, but no one suggests that the siddurim should be corrected.


Apparently some do, if my siddurim have been.



---sam

Attention ba'alei dikduk:

I've seen people mention Beruriah's diyyuk of "yitamu chatayim" chatayim 
velo chotim.  Am I the only one who is perplexed by this?  Doesn't chatayim 
mean people who are ingrained in sinning while chotim means people who 
occasionally sin?

electro-convulsive therapy?! <smile>
Rich W.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

What is that deus ex machina?

lution


> There is a perfectly legal, unobtrusive, inexpensive (one time cost
> less than $500 that could be reused hundreds of times over again)
<snip> 
> Josh
> 

I am fascinated by your pshat. It is meyashev the German nusach for
V'lamalshinim that I have used for years, albeit with the question of
Beruria "V'kol *osei* risha k'rega yoveidu". Have you seen this pshat
somewhere?

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL 60659
http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila    ygb@aishdas.org
----- Original Message -----
From: <gil.student@citicorp.com>
To: <avodah@aishdas.org>; <rjhendel@juno.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: AGUNOHT--Another approach


> Attention ba'alei dikduk:
>
> I've seen people mention Beruriah's diyyuk of "yitamu chatayim" chatayim
> velo chotim.  Am I the only one who is perplexed by this?  Doesn't
chatayim
> mean people who are ingrained in sinning while chotim means people who
> occasionally sin?
>
>

RRW wrote: (v4 n183)
<<how about "hirhurei aveiro kashin mei'aveiro

V'lo sossuro acharei .. aniechem

There seems to be a lot of cautions against certain prohibited sexual
desires 
not just actions>>

These don't appear to me to be cautions against prohibited desires. 
The first is simply a statement of fact, and the second a warning
against a course of action (with a statement that this a common source
of straying, i.e., "asher atem zonim achareihem").

On the other hand, the gemara in the 9th perek of Brachos (57a) says
that one who is ba al eishes-ish bachalom is a ben olam haba, but only
on the condition that he does not in fact do it, and is not meharher
about her during the day.  The pashtus is that the person has the innate
desire (and perhaps tendency towards arayot) but does not act on his
thoughts, and is therefore a tzaddik (the gemara on 55b states that our
dreams reflect our hirhurei lev).  Nevertheless, there is the strict
stipulation that the dreamer suppress his innate desire to the point of
not perseverating on the thoughts consciously at all (I'm not sure if
hirhur implies even evanescent thought, or only persistent or
persistently recurrent thoughts; anyone have any ra'ayos to be machria
either way?).  The gemara does list dreams regarding a few other bios
assuros there, and is not clear if the caveat of not daydreaming applies
to them as well, or only to eishes-ish.
If we assume (l'chumra) that the caveat applies to all of the arayot
listed, it seems that having the innate desire for bios assuros is not
bad, as long you properly control that desire, both in your actions and
daily thoughts (this goes back to RRW citation of "hirhurei
aveira...").

Sincerely,
David Eisenman

RYGB wrote:

>>Have you seen this pshat somewhere?>>

I once asked Rabbi Meir Orlian who agreed with me.  His example was a ganav 
and a goneiv, a goneiv being someone who has stolen while a ganav is a 
thief.

David Finch wrote, in response to M. Press' thoughtful comments:

> I am sure these observations are learned and correct. I wonder,
> however, whether sexual desire -- so central to the psychodynamic fire
> by which HaShem made us human beings -- can be relegated to a mere
> "aspect of human pleasure." Similarly, I wonder whether the avoidance
> of sexual tension, as opposed to achievement of sexual fulfillment, is
> large enough goal even for those Jews who involuntarily and
> inescapably "feel" their homosexuality.
> 
> Halacha is what it is. Rabbi Maryles posted a superb observation on
> the power that HaShem gave us along with halacha: compassion. We
> should exercise that power when we approach this subject.

I'm reminded of a post I saw somewhere once, possibly on
soc.culture.jewish, in the midst of a flame war on the subject.  The
poster was a frum homosexual who said "I KNOW it's against the halacha.
But damn you for being so happy about it."

Food for thought/reflection.

Freda Birnbaum, fbb6@columbia.edu
"Call on God, but row away from the rocks"

see features article in Haaretz today [ the zion square root of the problem]
on dropout from the territories in mafdal communities

 Is there any problem saying Christmas or Christ ? 

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 Rav Ahron Soloveichik says that it is no problem in saying it I wanted =
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Take Care
Baruch
bjk1@pipeline.com

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On 5 Dec 99, at 1:27, David Herskovic wrote:

> While the 'problem' of Yoatsot generated an enormous amount of posts the
> problem of teens leaving the fold has been relatively muted. 

I think the reason that the yoatzot generated so many posts, while 
the problem of troubled kids did not, is that the yoatzot were 
controversial. When it comes to the kids, we are all in favor of 
finding solutions, but I don't think there is any one solution that will 
work for all of them or even for a large percentage of them.

It is the
> same with all chareidi journals giving headline coverage to matters such
> as half a dozen non-jews emigrating from the former Soviet Union while
> tucking away social issues eating away at their midst in cryptic
> articles in the middle pages lest the 'enemy' gets to know about it.

Yes, the Charedi community (and really the entire Jewish 
community) doesn't like to admit that it has problems. Do you 
know anyone who does? I'm not saying it's right - one of the posts 
that I read while I was travelling last month, which I felt very 
strongly was correct, was Rabbi Blau's post about the way many 
Rabbonim here in Israel rushed out to defend a child molester 
(who, PS, was employed by a dati leumi school). But most of us 
don't want to admit that our community has some (maybe less 
than other communities, but it has some) alcoholics, child 
molesters, wife beaters and rebellious children R"L.

> Teens leaving the fold are an inevitable consequence of a)the growth in
> numbers of the chareidi population and b)the ever increasing extremism,
> insularity and self imposed isolation of the community.

Then how do you explain why just as many teens are leaving the 
fold in the dati leumi communinty here in Israel R"L? My wife 
caught the end of a speaker at my daughter's (dati leumi) high 
school last year who said that based on statistics of ten years ago, 
one graduate in five in the dati leumi high schools leaves fruhmkeit 
within a few years. And if anything, it has only gotten worse since 
then, according to the speaker. Is the dati leumi population growing 
as fast as the Charedi one? Is it as insular as the Charedi 
population? 

FWIW the number I have heard for Charedim dropping out of the 
Yeshivas (between the ages of 16-21) is 20-30% but many of those 
kids at least remain fruhm. So the dropout numbers are apparently 
comparable between the two communities. Obviously, there must 
be some other explanation for kids dropping out and going off the 
derech aside from population growth and insularity!

> If the roshei yeshives, rebbes, gedoylim can be relied on for anything
> it is that as usual they will identify the wrong problems and suggest
> the wrong solutions.

On what basis are you making this statement?

> So we get the notices and posters couched in histrionic clichés signed
> by the great and the good who will not for a moment consider that the
> chareidi system is simply not suitable for everyone.

It may well be the case that the Charedi system is not suitable for 
everyone, but as far as I can tell (and the article in Jewish Action 
over the summer did nothing to convince me otherwise, nor do I 
think it was intended to), WE - all of us fruhm Jews - have a 
dropout problem, that cuts across all shades of fruhmkeit. To say 
that it only exists in the Charedi community, or is only attributable 
to causes that exist only in the Charedi community, is naive.

> Only this morning was there an appeal in my shtibel by some asken and
> mekhanekh who emphasised how even in some of the best households there
> is a permanent tishe bov as a result of a youngster going 'off' and how
> 'warm' yingerlat can reverse the trend.

And in some - but not all - cases, they can.

> So there you have it. The problem is the grief of the parents but not
> the plight of the youngster while the solution is so simple it makes you
> kick yourself you didn't think of it first.

So if the solution is so simple, what is it? If what you're hinting at is 
for all the Charedi kids to become dati leumi (or MO), you're going 
to have to do a lot better at convincing me that the MO dropout rate 
is significantly lower than the Charedi one.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:cmsherer@ssgslaw.co.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

*********************


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