Avodah Mailing List
Volume 04 : Number 165
Monday, December 6 1999
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:55:25 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re[2]: Problem Kids
I can 2nd and third this with a LOT of anecdotal evidence.
For the average teacher to teach ADD kids is as difficult as for a driving
insturctor to tach a drunk person how to drive!
Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
My brother's oldest son, who is now approximately 40
years old, had ADD and was undiagnosed, mainly because
the diagnosis did not exist yet. The result was that
overly indulgent parents through the pre-school years
turned into virtually abusive parents forcing long
periods of "homework". From first grade on, my nephew
would spend almost all of his at home hours at the
dining room table in front of his books without a clue
as to what he was doing. There were tutors of the
highest calibre and of not so high calibre who were
paid by his well meaning parents to try and get him to
study. But, to no avail. He just "wouldn't" learn!
My brothers frustration often turned to anger at his
son for not wanting to study and he was often punished
excessivly. My nephew was finally kicked out of
school after 7th grade for being disruptive, (being
the class clown and the like) and for failing in his
class work. He ended up in a series of yeshivos and
public high school, from eigth grade on. Of course
Public High school couldn't handle him either so he
finally "graduated" from a specialized public school
for "problem" students.
His lack of envolvement in the Frum community, which
totally ostracized him, caused him to totally abandon
Torah Judaism. His ego was almost non-exixstant and
had almost no self esteem by the time he was 18 years
old.
Fortunately this is not the end of the story.
He finally left Chicago to move to Israel, to try and
start life afresh. He bounced around from one job to
another until his antisocial behavior caused him to be
rejected by almost all of society, frum and not frum.
He had no place to live. My father, (his grandfather)
lived in Bnei Brak and my nephew, a broken young man
of about 20, asked if he could live there a while
until he could figure out what to do with the rest of
his life. He was introduced (by my cousin who learns
in the Chazon Ish Kollel in Bnei Brak) to "Marbeh
Torah", a Baal Teshuva institution, run by the Cahzon
Ish people.
Fast forward to today. He is a Torah observant Jew
living in Monsey, married, beloved by his community,
and working in Hashagacha for the OU.
Moral of the Story? There must be hundreds if not
thousands of at risk children whose learning
disabilities went undiagnosed in the pre ADD era.
Not all of them had a happy ending.
Today we must not be afraid to quickly, at the
earliest age, diagnose children with disorders of this
type so they can be helped by caring proffesionals
and, be spared, at best, a lifetime of frustration and
agony, and at worst, a lifetime of depraved existance,
turning to drugs, illicit sex or worse.
HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
Go to top.
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 16:03:30 -0500
From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
Subject: Re: The Tenth Man
FWIW 2 stories.
1) I was on a double date with a guy who was not so frum. We got called into
aminyan for maariv in a nearby shul. We left our dates and davened. All was
more or less ok when teh rabbi started adding all kinds of hosafos for Yom
hoatzmous. (he knew the 2 of us were leaving our dates "hanging")
I was furious. He could have done that w/o a minyan and let us go. It was IMHO
in poor taste and a real tircho detziburo.
But he did it before the last kaddish making leaving early very awkward.
2) I had a date right after Shabbos. The shul got a minyan late. The rabbi
refused to cut down the zemiros or the davr Torah meaning that shalosh shudos
ended 15-20 minutes late, even after I asked that he hurry it up, that I had a
date after shul, etc. I wanted to leave before maarive but that would have
left him w/o a minyan. >
When I run a Mincho Minyan and it's late, I switch to a heicho dedusho. Some
people have argued with me, but I guess those expiernces color my thinking about
making people wait on MY behalf for MY chumro
Rich Wolpoe
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: The Tenth Man
I'd like to open a new Avodas Hashem discussion. What should be done when
a minyan has been scheduled, but fewer than a minyan have shown up?
<SNIP>
Sometimes, the very act of singling out a person seems to suggest that
whatever he is doing right now, it is less important than helping to make
the minyan. Depending on the person, it might imply that he is negligent
in his davening. These are certainly accusations which we should avoid
making.
<SNIP>
Go to top.
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:45:23 -0500
From: "Daniel B. Schwartz" <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: co-opting music
At this time of year, the "Holiday season" in America, I have a very hard
timd supressing my every growing enfatuation for the music of the season.
Indeed, the more religious the hymn or carol, the greater it's draw for my
musical ear (by way of a small but relevant auto-biography, I am a trained
Chazan, and as such rather sensitive to the power of a great melody). My
question is two fold:
1. How bad is it to like and enjoy the music of this season? Do I
place my soul in peril my doing so?
2. What would be the prohibition, assuming there is one, of co-opting
some of the nicer melodies and using in our own liturgy. In other words,
does a melody acquire a status of "holiness" or "sacrilege?" By way of
analogy, there is a concept in Jewish music of the "MiSinai" melodies, which
are : Kol Nidre/Aleinu/Avot, Tal/Geshem, and Neilah. Those melodies can
never be abandoned as a matter of Halacha. But how far does this idea
apply?
DANIEL B. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. SPECIALIZING IN ALL ASPECTS
OF MATRIMONIAL, FAMILY AND COMMERCIAL LITIGATION FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION INQUIRE AT:
SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET
Go to top.
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:42:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Josh Hoexter <hoexter@wam.umd.edu>
Subject: Re: The Tenth Man
> From: Kenneth G Miller <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
> But more often, there is a suggestion to target a specific individual who
> lives nearby, and either phone him, or send a messenger to his home to
> ask him to help out. My feeling has been to oppose this; in most cases it
> seems to be a "yotzay s'charo b'hefsedo", where we lose a lot in the
> "bein adam l'chaveiro" department, for very small gains in "bein adam
> l'makom".
I agree that waiting more than a few minutes is a bad idea, but I don't
see the loss in "bein adam l'chaveiro" if calling (less pressure than a
personal visit) is done correctly - asking "are you available?" rather
than "we need you to come" does not imply culpability. Presuming the
individual knows he may be 9 or 11 when he answers "yes" or "no", there is
no reason for him to be upset when he shows up - even if he is number 11
and they started without him, at least "schar halichah b'yado".
In my experience, it is important for those who live in communities where
minyanim are frequently short to remember "holeich v'oseh - chosid" and
not be frustrated when the "tsenter" doesn't show up.
I have seen communities grow tremendously because of a few dedicated
people with positive attitudes, and I have also seen the opposite. At
least where the community is small, phone calls can be essential, but they
have to be done correctly.
Josh Hoexter
Go to top.
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 19:02:43 -0500
From: Joe Markel <moshiach@nauticom.net>
Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Arafat is Hiding Billions]
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------0D1B6C4D9D58D262509E9399
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> =
> =
> =
> =
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
> =
> Subject: Fwd: Arafat is Hiding Billions
> Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 17:06:54 EST
> From: Msddab@aol.com
> To: Gboat4@aol.com
> =
> =
> =
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
> =
> Subject: Arafat is Hiding Billions
> Date: Sun, 5 Dec 99 20:52:49 PST
> From: delowe <delowe@netvision.net.il>
> To: President@whitehouse.gov
> CC: hirc@mail.house.gov, pm@pmo.gov.il, secretary@state.gov
> =
> >From the 05 December edition of the London Sunday Telegraph Newspaper =
comes the following lead article. You will note the numbers are in pounds=
(1 pound =3D $1.65).
> =
> Jack De Lowe
> ----------------------------------------
> Hackers uncover secret billions of Arafat's PLO
> By Tom Gross in Jerusalem
> =
> =
> The Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat has salted away =
billions of pounds for the Palestinian Liberation Organisation in secret =
foreign bank accounts and investments, including property in London.
> =
> The disclosure about the hidden wealth of his PLO come=
s amid deepening economic hardship in his Gaza and West Bank fiefdoms. It=
will also hamper his efforts to woo a huge influx of European aid for hi=
s fledgling Palestinian regime.
> =
> The timing of the disclosures could not have been more=
embarrassing as Mr. Arafat, seated before a stage built to resemble a gi=
ant Christmas crib, yesterday opened Millennium celebrations in Bethlehem=
=2E He hopes that the year of festivities in Jesus's birthplace will show=
case his push for an independent Palestinian state.
> =
> New details of the vast PLO fortune he controls have c=
ome to light following a series of computer break-ins at the headquarters=
of the Palestine Liberation Organisation in Tunis.
> =
> The hackers discovered that the PLO maintains about =A3=
5 billion in numbered bank accounts in Zurich, Geneva and New York. It al=
so holds accounts with smaller sums in north Africa, Europe and Asia. The=
y are not registered in the PLO's name, but in the names of private indiv=
iduals.
> =
> The records also showed that the PLO owns shares on th=
e Frankfurt, Paris and Tokyo stock exchanges, including stock in the Germ=
an car giant Mercedes Benz, and property in prestigious areas of European=
capitals, including Mayfair in London.
> =
> The organisation, which once specialised in aircraft h=
ijackings, also has shares in several airlines, including the national ca=
rriers of the Maldives and Guinea Bissau. The computer security breach is=
believed on the West Bank to have been carried out by PLO officials disg=
runtled with Mr Arafat's leadership.
> "They wished to dispel the smokescreen created around =
the PLO's finances," a Palestinian official told The Telegraph.
> =
> Mr. Arafat has always refused to comment on reports ab=
out the foreign bank accounts. But the disclosures caused anger in pover=
ty-stricken Gaza. One embittered Palestinian said: "Why is he sitting on =
a mountain of gold, while there is a desperate lack of jobs and medical s=
upplies here?"
> =
> Mr. Arafat is both president of the Palestinian Author=
ity, the semi-autonomous organisation that governs parts of Gaza and the =
West Bank, and the chairman of the PLO, which maintains its headquarters =
in Tunis, its base during its terrorist heyday.
> =
> The creation of the Palestinian Authority, the embryon=
ic government for a future Palestinian state, was supposed to lead to the=
winding-up of the PLO - and make the Palestinian leadership accountable =
and law-abiding. But the authority has in fact been repeatedly accused by=
domestic opponents of rampant corruption and mismanagement.
> =
> The web of secret bank accounts and assets held around=
the world is believed to be so complex that only Mr. Arafat himself and =
two of his most trusted aides know the overall picture. Much of the money=
is the result of "taxes" levied on Palestinians working in Kuwait and ot=
her Gulf states in the Seventies and Eighties, and of donations from weal=
thy states such as Saudi Arabia.
> =
> The assets are controlled by Mr. Arafat himself and it=
is not known what would happen to them if the 70-year-old, who is said t=
o be suffering from Parkinson's disease, should die. An Israeli intellige=
nce analyst said: "These revelations are almost certainly not the whole s=
tory. No one can know the full extent of the PLO's assets. They are so we=
ll hidden."
> =
> The disclosures are also likely to prompt internationa=
l donors, including the European Union countries, to ask why Mr. Arafat i=
s still demanding aid for his Palestinian authority. Nor will they have b=
een impressed by his decision to invite Slobodan Milosevic, Yugoslavia's =
president, to Bethlehem.
> =
> =A9 Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 1999.
> =
> -------------------------------------
> Name: De Lowe, Jack
> E-mail: delowe@netvision.net.il
> Date: 12/05/99
> Time: 20:52:49
--------------0D1B6C4D9D58D262509E9399
Content-Type: message/rfc822;
name="nsmailLB.TMP"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline;
filename="nsmailLB.TMP"
Return-path: Cyberbetz1@aol.com
From: Cyberbetz1@aol.com
Full-name: Cyberbetz1
Message-ID: <0.91ef51c3.257c6132@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:45:38 EST
Subject: Fwd: Arafat is Hiding Billions
To: BatiaBoop@aol.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part2_0.336850ea.257c6132_boundary"
X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45
--part2_0.336850ea.257c6132_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
--part2_0.336850ea.257c6132_boundary
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline
Return-path: Msddab@aol.com
From: Msddab@aol.com
Full-name: Msddab
Message-ID: <0.6bb62639.257c3bfe@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 17:06:54 EST
Subject: Fwd: Arafat is Hiding Billions
To: Gboat4@aol.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part3_0.336850ea.257c3bfe_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 228
--part3_0.336850ea.257c3bfe_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
--part3_0.336850ea.257c3bfe_boundary
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline
Return-Path: <delowe@netvision.net.il>
Received: from rly-yc04.mx.aol.com (rly-yc04.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.36])
by air-yc05.mail.aol.com (vx) with ESMTP; Sun, 05 Dec 1999 14:10:18
1900
Received: from alpha.netvision.net.il (alpha.netvision.net.il [194.90.1.13])
by rly-yc04.mx.aol.com (v66.4) with ESMTP; Sun, 05 Dec 1999 14:10:02
-0500
Received: from dialup.netvision.net.il (RAS3-p102.hrz.netvision.net.il
[62.0.154.102])
by alpha.netvision.net.il (8.9.3/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA26421;
Sun, 5 Dec 1999 20:55:24 +0200 (IST)
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 99 20:52:49 PST
From: delowe <delowe@netvision.net.il>
Subject: Arafat is Hiding Billions
To: President@whitehouse.gov
Cc: hirc@mail.house.gov, pm@pmo.gov.il, secretary@state.gov
X-Mailer: Chameleon V0.05, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc.
Message-ID: <Chameleon.991205205733.delowe@dialup.netvision.net.il>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE
From the 05 December edition of the London Sunday Telegraph Newspaper comes=20=
the following lead article. You will note the numbers are in pounds (1 pound=
=3D $1.65).
Jack De Lowe
----------------------------------------
Hackers uncover secret billions of Arafat's PLO
By Tom Gross in Jerusalem
=20
The Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat has salted away billi=
ons of pounds for the Palestinian Liberation Organisation in secret foreign=20=
bank accounts and investments, including property in London.
The disclosure about the hidden wealth of his PLO comes ami=
d deepening economic hardship in his Gaza and West Bank fiefdoms. It will al=
so hamper his efforts to woo a huge influx of European aid for his fledgling=
Palestinian regime.
The timing of the disclosures could not have been more emba=
rrassing as Mr. Arafat, seated before a stage built to resemble a giant Chri=
stmas crib, yesterday opened Millennium celebrations in Bethlehem. He hopes=20=
that the year of festivities in Jesus's birthplace will showcase his push fo=
r an independent Palestinian state.
New details of the vast PLO fortune he controls have come t=
o light following a series of computer break-ins at the headquarters of the=20=
Palestine Liberation Organisation in Tunis.
The hackers discovered that the PLO maintains about =A35 bi=
llion in numbered bank accounts in Zurich, Geneva and New York. It also hold=
s accounts with smaller sums in north Africa, Europe and Asia. They are not=20=
registered in the PLO's name, but in the names of private individuals.
The records also showed that the PLO owns shares on the Fra=
nkfurt, Paris and Tokyo stock exchanges, including stock in the German car g=
iant Mercedes Benz, and property in prestigious areas of European capitals,=20=
including Mayfair in London.
The organisation, which once specialised in aircraft hijack=
ings, also has shares in several airlines, including the national carriers o=
f the Maldives and Guinea Bissau. The computer security breach is believed o=
n the West Bank to have been carried out by PLO officials disgruntled with M=
r Arafat's leadership.
"They wished to dispel the smokescreen created around the P=
LO's finances," a Palestinian official told The Telegraph.=20
Mr. Arafat has always refused to comment on reports about t=
he foreign bank accounts. But the disclosures caused anger in poverty-stric=
ken Gaza. One embittered Palestinian said: "Why is he sitting on a mountain=20=
of gold, while there is a desperate lack of jobs and medical supplies here?"
Mr. Arafat is both president of the Palestinian Authority,=20=
the semi-autonomous organisation that governs parts of Gaza and the West Ban=
k, and the chairman of the PLO, which maintains its headquarters in Tunis, i=
ts base during its terrorist heyday.
The creation of the Palestinian Authority, the embryonic go=
vernment for a future Palestinian state, was supposed to lead to the winding=
-up of the PLO - and make the Palestinian leadership accountable and law-abi=
ding. But the authority has in fact been repeatedly accused by domestic oppo=
nents of rampant corruption and mismanagement.
The web of secret bank accounts and assets held around the=20=
world is believed to be so complex that only Mr. Arafat himself and two of h=
is most trusted aides know the overall picture. Much of the money is the res=
ult of "taxes" levied on Palestinians working in Kuwait and other Gulf state=
s in the Seventies and Eighties, and of donations from wealthy states such a=
s Saudi Arabia.=20
The assets are controlled by Mr. Arafat himself and it is n=
ot known what would happen to them if the 70-year-old, who is said to be suf=
fering from Parkinson's disease, should die. An Israeli intelligence analyst=
said: "These revelations are almost certainly not the whole story. No one c=
an know the full extent of the PLO's assets. They are so well hidden."
The disclosures are also likely to prompt international don=
ors, including the European Union countries, to ask why Mr. Arafat is still=20=
demanding aid for his Palestinian authority. Nor will they have been impress=
ed by his decision to invite Slobodan Milosevic, Yugoslavia's president, to=20=
Bethlehem.=20
=A9 Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 1999.=20
-------------------------------------
Name: De Lowe, Jack
E-mail: delowe@netvision.net.il
Date: 12/05/99
Time: 20:52:49
--part3_0.336850ea.257c3bfe_boundary--
--part2_0.336850ea.257c6132_boundary--
--------------0D1B6C4D9D58D262509E9399--
Go to top.
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:50:11 EST
From: DFinchPC@aol.com
Subject: Re: Problem kids - ADD
I think medical science has decided that spicy foods don't cause ulcers after
all, or even exacerbate them. Ulcers are caused by a histamine that can be
counteracted by drugs, even if one pours on the hot sauce.
The same, I understand, is true with TV and ADD. I understand that TV, in an
of itself, neither causes ADD nor heightens its symptoms. That doesn't mean
that TV can't be complicating distraction for already highly distractable
children. Some TV shows are much less a problem than others.
As with so many issues we've discussed, generalities and theories aren't real
useful in solving specific problems.
David Finch
Go to top.
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:13:28 EST
From: DFinchPC@aol.com
Subject: Re: co-opting music
In a message dated 99-12-06 17:48:35 EST, you write:
<< My
question is two fold:
1. How bad is it to like and enjoy the music of this season? Do I
place my soul in peril my doing so?
2. What would be the prohibition, assuming there is one, of co-opting
some of the nicer melodies and using in our own liturgy. >>
First, the best music of the season is already overwhelmingly Jewish.
Chestnuts roasting on the open fire? I'm dreaming of a white X-mas? Irving
Berlin. O, Tannenbaum, O Tannenbaum? That's Yankel Tannenbaum. So go ahead,
enjoy.
Second, traditional and liturgical X-mas music that is not especially Jewish
-- i.e., Bach, Mozart, Verdi, Gregorian chants, etc. -- is missing something.
It's too bland and artificial, even when (especially when) it is fancied up
with harps and choirs and grand orchestral arrangements. No clarinet, no
fiddle, no yiddle, no tears, just flat. Gospel music and old Delta blues are
much better, if one needs sustenance from that side of the coin. My mother,
who grew up very Jewish in Mobile, Alabama, long ago, can tell you about the
emotional link between real Gospel and real Yiddishkeit. No such link exists
with O Carolling, O Carolling We Shall Go.
David Finch
Go to top.
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:41:41 -0500 (EST)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject: Re: hamakom yenachem, singular vs. plural
David Eisenman <eisenman@umich.edu> writes in v4n161:
: I have always understood that one should always say it in the masculine
: plural, since you are including the mourner(s) amongst all Aveilei
: Yisrael; this, in fact, may be a part of the nichum.
The line is "May the Omnipresent comfort you amongst the mourners..."
The gender of the mourners of the second clause, the the "you" is amongst,
should have little to do with the gender of "you". So, I'm not sure
how your point is relevent.
: Rabbi Adam Mintz (then at KJ), along with all of the people who were
: present, recited nichum aveilim together, and then he recited an English
: translation that went "May G-D comfort you amongst all of us who mourn
: for Zion and Jerusalem." This would not absolutely necessitate reciting
: eschem all the time, but they do work together nicely.
Again, I'm not sure of the relevence, as the gender and number of the
speaker(s) has nothing to do with the gender and number of the "you"
they are speaking to.
More on the point: where does the "of us" come from? It says "bisoch sha'ar
avlei tziyon viYrushalayim" -- not "bisocheinu, sha'ar..."
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG"H for 6-Dec-99: Levi, Miketz
micha@aishdas.org A"H
http://www.aishdas.org Pisachim 79b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
Go to top.
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:45:53 -0500 (EST)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject: Re: problem kids
: While the 'problem' of Yoatsot generated an enormous amount of posts the
: problem of teens leaving the fold has been relatively muted.
I think that's because we're simply all on the same side on this issue.
Arguments encourage counter-arguments, so of course the Yoatzos issue
generated much email volume.
: It is the
: same with all chareidi journals giving headline coverage ...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this discussion started because of an article
in the Jewish observer. How then do we get to this observation?
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG"H for 6-Dec-99: Levi, Miketz
micha@aishdas.org A"H
http://www.aishdas.org Pisachim 79b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
Go to top.
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 22:05:32 -0500 (EST)
From: micha@aishdas.org (Micha Berger)
Subject: Re: agunahs in baltimore
Freda B Birnbaum <fbb6@columbia.edu> writes:
:> She does. As is obvious from the article, she is a vocal proponent of
:> the "If the Rabbis *really* wanted to they could solve the aguna
:> problem -- since they don't, obviously they don't want to" school of
:> feminism.
: Hmmm... If I were a visiting Martian, with no axe at all, I'd wonder why
: they hadn't solved it by now.
The question presumes a Conservative attitude -- that halachah is infinitely
malleable, and that any desired conclusion can be fitted into it.
However, from what I've seen of mesechtos Kiddushin and Kesuvos, I'd be
surprised if that halachah really has no solution for this. So why no solutions
yet? Not for lack of trying -- a quick survey of halachic periodicals can show
that the Rabinic will is there. I think it's just simpler: we underestimate the
length of time halachic change works. How long was it from the time poor people
found themselves unable to solve their cashflow problems (because lenders
prefered lending to goyim and getting interest) until the heter iska was found?
Perhaps your martian just hasn't been around long enough to be aware of
precedent.
Daniel B. Schwartz <SCHWARTZESQ@WORLDNET.ATT.NET> writes:
: While I agree with Mrs. (Ms.?) Ragen's viewpoiny, I also have a more basic
: desire as well; for many rabbis involved in Gittin to cease being corrupt.
The overwhelming majority aren't -- not that Daniel claims they are, I
just want the obvious stated.
In our rush to villify the guilty, and to identify and address real ills,
we can't got overboard and accuse everyone. Avodah's population isn't
an atypically super-moral -- the typical dayan is just as outraged as we are.
Far more Rabbanim aided my friend's mother than aided his father, but it
only takes three to complicate the matter.
Aside from the motzi shem ra issue, it doesn't serve the cause by giving
the guilty accused accusations that are easy to deflate.
-mi
--
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287 MMG"H for 6-Dec-99: Levi, Miketz
micha@aishdas.org A"H
http://www.aishdas.org Pisachim 79b
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.
Go to top.
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:09:36 -0800 (PST)
From: harry maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: problem kids
--- David Herskovic <david@arctic1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Teens leaving the fold are an inevitable consequence
> of a)the growth in
> numbers of the chareidi population and b)the ever
> increasing extremism,
> insularity and self imposed isolation of the
> community.
>
> If the roshei yeshives, rebbes, gedoylim can be
> relied on for anything
> it is that as usual they will identify the wrong
> problems and suggest
> the wrong solutions.
>
> So we get the notices and posters couched in
> histrionic clichés signed
> by the great and the good who will not for a moment
> consider that the
> chareidi system is simply not suitable for everyone.
I must protest the above response. Eventhough I have
often critisized the RW in the past on various issues,
I believe they are finally beginning to recognize the
scope of the problem, albeit a little late.
(hopefully not too late). I read most of the JO issue
under discussion and I do believe there is recognition
of past ineptitude on the part of the RW in dealing
with the problem.
One very enlightening article was the very first one
by an obviously charedei woman talking about her own
wayward son. From the tone of the letter one could
glean that she was basicly a good mother, and had done
all the right things in raising her son. But he still
turned out to be a yeshiva dropout and "pothead". One
of the insights she had was that all of the so called
"bad" influences that we are told by the RW to
eliminate, such as TV and Movies were NOT responsible
for her sons dilemma. These were only facilitators to
a problem whose roots went much deeper and were
probably not necessarily her's or her husbands's
fault.
It would have been so easy to blame the dominant media
culture for the ills of these Charedi "dropouts". But,
in a rare moment of candor by the JO, this was not
done. Instead there seemed to be some genuine
introspection and desire to solve the problem.
If you read nothing else in this issue of the JO, read
the last article by Dr. Jerry Lob. It should be
"clipped" and posted in the heart of every father.
HM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
Go to top.
*********************
[ Distributed to the Avodah mailing list, digested version. ]
[ To post: mail to avodah@aishdas.org ]
[ For back issues: mail "get avodah-digest vXX.nYYY" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]
[ or, the archive can be found at http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/ ]
[ For general requests: mail the word "help" to majordomo@aishdas.org ]