Avodah Mailing List

Volume 04 : Number 103

Wednesday, November 3 1999

• Re: ed echad
• Public schools/Religion
• Re: Rabbenu Yonah
• Re: Catch Up Learning - Correction and Apology
• Choilum
• RE:Newsweek article
• Soloveitchik & Feinstein
• secular education and lubavitch
• Limudei chol
• Soloveitchik & Feinstein
• RE:Newsweek article
• Esrogim
• RYBS and Reb Moshse's family
• RE: Avodah V4 #101
• Re: Soloveitchik & Feinstein
• Re:limudei chol and Ponevez
• Excerpt from HaYom Yom
• Re:limudei chol and Ponevez
• Re: secular education and lubavitch
• Shabbos Guests

In a message dated 11/3/99 10:30:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
targum1@juno.com writes:

> >>>>>>>>>>
>  
>  In the same issue,  a posuk is transliterated as "vayotzei oisoi."  What
>  manner of word is oisoi? Bad enough that the cholam is mispronounced.
>  Does it also have to be mistransliterated?
>  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>  
>  This is infantile, false and slanderous. The "vayotzei oisoi" was made 
>  in a posting by Yitzchok Zirkind responding to Chaim Brown. 
>  
OK I'll take the blame, now tell me to I have to rewrite it  <g> (BTW which 
of the 3 Cholom's is/are the problem <G>)

Kol Tuv

Yitzchok Zirkind

--- Daniel Israel <daniel@pluto.ame.arizona.edu>
wrote:
> 
> Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > TROMBAEDU@aol.com wrote:
> > > Most Frum Jews couldn't conceive of what its
> like
> > > knowing the words to Christmas Carols better
> than Shma. Welcome to
> > > the ugly world.
> >
> > Is there anyone raised in the US who doesn't know
> the
> > words to Jingle Bells, no matter how right wing a
> > Yeshiva he went to? 
> > What does that prove?  I couldn't care less if
> public
> > schools have Christmas trees anymore than I care
> if
> > there is a national Christmas tree on the White
> house
> > lawn.
> 
> Do your children go to  public schools, and if not
> would that change
> your opinion?  What about the cast majority of
> non-religous Jews who do
> go to public school?  Do we have an obligation to
> protect them?

I went to public school untill 4th grade.  I remember
hating Christmes time then (as I still do).  Had I
continued in PS  without ever having attended a
Religious Day school I would have become a very fine
Goy, probably with a Chanuka bush in my house.

Of course I care about the vast majority of
non-religous Jews who go to public school. The answer
for them is Kiruv of the type NCSY provides.  Short of
that, there is unfortunatly little hope that these
kids will remain Jewsih and will likely leave Judaism
in droves, intermarry, and have Christian (RL)
children.  Certainly w/o any Torah contact, they don't
even know the definition of Judasim. If anything we
should strenghten our resolve to be Mekarev these kids
as much as possible.  

To the extent they are targets of misionaristic cults
Like "Jews for J." or "Chosen People Minitries",  We
have to fight them with all of our resources.  If
missionaries can be there (in school campuses etc)
then so should we.  Perhaps we should be monitering
the activities of these cults more carefully.  Perhaps
this is even being done by groups like "Jews for
Judaism". I just don't know.  But, please don't
confuse Misionaristic cults like Jews for J. with
mainstream Christians, who eventhough they might
believe in our ultimate conversion, have an aversion
to it now.

HM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

On 3 Nov 99, at 17:38, Eli Turkel wrote:

> As for Shaare teshuva there is no indication in the sefer that this is true.
> This story has been around for a long time. Does anyone know the facts?

I don't have it in front of me, but doesn't he say it in the Hakdama?

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

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     I don't think this got in so I'm resending it.  Sorry if it appears 
     twice but I think I'm obligated to get this in.


______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________
     >>>>>>Are you willing to say that to R. Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg's 
     face?>>>>>>
     
     >>>>I don't think he went to college, but that's beside the point. 
     Although he was born in America, his training was in Europe (R. 
     Scheinberg learned in Mir - the town - not just the Yeshiva).>>>>
     
     >>If I remember correctly from "All For The Boss," he learned in 
     Yeshiva University and graduated from college.>>
     
     I apologize for my inaccuracy.  RCPS did not go to college.  He 
     learned in RJJ, New Haven, RIETS, and the Mir in that order (All For 
     The Boss pp. 113-115).  At that time, RIETS did not have a college.  
     However, my point still stands that he grew up in America and is a 
     gadol betorah as did most if not all of the Moetzes Gedolei Torah of 
     Agudath Israel of America.  I think we all agree that iluyim, 
     exceptional students, can succeed in learning while growing up in 
     America.

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TO: avodah@aishdas.org

--openmail-part-0f4fdb0e-00000001--

I am guilty in this regard. My family is from Suvalk, so I know quite well
from R' Dovid Lifshitz's shiur what the havarah of my minhag sounds like.

But I too switched from choilum to cholum, as did many Americans.

Lima'aseh, it's problematic. I'm pretty sure lichatchilah I should be saying
shema in Poilisher/Southern Litvish Hebrew. Minus those things that the
textualist in me would deem minhag ta'os. (The last bit thrown in just for
RJR's entertainment.) I don't think I should be inheriting their lack of
hakpadah on sh'va na vs nach, kamatz gadol vs katan, syllable stressing,
tenuos chatufos, etc...

Speaking of preserving minhag, my ancestors wore white and only spoke lashon
hakodesh on Shabbos. I somehow think issues of yuharah ought to prevent me
from following those minhagim.

-mi

PS: Am I the only one who is daunted by the current volume of emails? I'm
    significantly behind on my housekeeping duties. Sorry.

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for  3-Nov-99: Revi'i, Sara
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H 
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 63a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Melachim-II 2

Two observations -- one, that the author doesn't understand or approve of
his brother's lifestyle; two, that he strung together a series of quotes
(out of context) and incidents in order to portray his brother as
unreasonable.

Akiva

===========================
Akiva Atwood
POB 27515
Jerusalem, Israel 91274




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-avodah@aishdas.org [mailto:owner-avodah@aishdas.org]On
> Behalf Of Zeliglaw@aol.com
> Sent: 03 November 1999 06:02
> To: avodah@aishdas.org
> Subject: Scholars in Residence,Newsweek article
>
>
> In my community(Kew Gardens Hills), I have been zoche to work
> with an ad hoc
> group which sponsors shiurim on legal holidays. we have had
> Roshei Yeshiva
> from Lakewood, NIRC, RIETS and many other yeshivos. We apply
> no political
> litmus test . Our only requirement is that the speaker is an
> outstandingTalmid Chacham Shegiha Lhorah who has the right
> and ability to say
> a shiur in his Mesorah.Our speakers have included Rav
> Yerucham Olshin , Rav
> Yitzchak Breitowitz, Rav Tzvi berkowitz, Rav Schachter and a
> Rosh yeshiva
> from Bobov.Our annual Selichos shiurim are given by Rav
> Schachter and Rav
> Yitzchak Noach Oelbaum.In our shul, we have had Rav
> Schachter, Rav Yisssachar
> Frand, Rav A.C.Feuer, Rav Kirzner z'l and Rav Tzvi Hersch
> Weinrib(father of
> list member Shaul Weinrib). We have also sponsored speakers
> on Motaei Shabbos
> such as Rabbi Berel Wein Dr JJ scachter, Dr Sid Z Leiman, Dr
> David Berger , R
> David Weinberger and Rav Tzvi Flaum.The key is quality and
> intellectual
> honesty, not adherence to any sense of being
> religiously/politically correct.
>    The incident described by Harry Maryles involving Mori
> Urabi Rav Schachter
> is not the first such incident. I understand that after the
> petirah of RYBS
> ZTL, that he was not permitted to speak at a certain shul
> because of his YU
> affiliation and that when he spoke in Philadelphia, Rav Svei
> was out of town.
> I would think that all list members are aware that Rabbeinu
> Yonah wrote
> Shaarei teshuvah because of his role in the Maimondean
> controversy after
> asking mechilah at the kever of the Rambam. the Agudah and
> the Moetzes missed
> a historic opportunity to be "koneh olam habah bsha achas" .
> Instead , it
> denigrated RYBS in the manner of "acharei mos, kdoshim ,
> emor" with the no
> able exception of Rav Shmuel Yaakov Weinberg Zl.
>    have any list members seen this week's Newsweek? It has a
> fascinating book
> excerpt of a reunion between two brothers, one a charedi baal
> teshuva and his
> long lost brother(the author). The Bt's comment are
> unfortunate, inane and of
> questionable halachic veracity(i.e.check out his comments on
> US/Canadian
> customs) if he had been a Brisker, he would have recognized that"not
> everything that you think should be said and that not
> evrything that you say
> should be published"!!  Unfortunately, his views will be
> quoted as those of
> an "authentic Torah observant Jew".
>
>
>           Zeliglaw@aol.com(Steven Brizel)
>
>

> 
> It is also my impression that there were warm personal connections between the 
> Rav and the Feinstein's who were after all his cousins.
> 
Can someone please give the details of how Rav Soloveitchik was related to
rav Moshe (something more than just that the Rav's maternal grandfather
was a Feinstein).

Eli Turkel

Not to get into the debate of who is a gadol, but Chabad can have its own 
gedolim even not recognized universally as such -- the folks listed have at 
least as much torah learning under their belt as the "chachamim" who managed 
to write a certain five volume set of commentaries on Rashi without at least 
once citing a Rav from outside the litvishe velt and a handful of 
politically approved chassidic rebbeim.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From: richard_wolpoe@ibi.com
 
> W/O getting into the specifics, it seems clear to me that the salient issue 
>  that caused the Netziv to close Volozhin was the fact thatt he refused to 
>  have the Russian government dictate what was studied and how long.  It was 
>  particularly offensive because of the Anti-Semitic nautre of the czarist 
>  regime.  It is likely that had they insisted on lean

WADR, from the Schachter article in Torah Umadda Journal, the salient reason
was quantitative, rather than qualitative.  Under the czarist new rule, 
Volozhin had to teach secular studies from 9 to 3, and could not hold 
classes after dark.  This meant that there would be no time for limudei
kodesh in the winter.  An hour or two of secular studies was fine, no
limudei kodesh obviated the raison d'e^tre of the yeshiva.

       Jonathan Baker     |  Marches-wan, marches-two,
       jjbaker@panix.com  |  March the months all through and through

Rav's maternal grandfather was R. Eliyohu Feinstein author of Shut Halichos 
Eliyohu and uncle of R. Moshe

BUT

I heard (unconfirmed) that while R. Eliyaho  was R. Moshe'sUncle and his name 
was Feinstein, that one was  a Levi and one a Yisroel and that he was an uncle 
by marriage.


I CAN confrim that R. Gorleick on one of his famous (infamous?) Thanskgiving 
shiurim was quoting from the Halichos Eliyohu and whe he made it a point to tell
us of the relationship. 

BTW, I know of no formal link between RIETS and MTJ, but R. Gorelcik and R. 
Nisson Alpert were 2 of the "stars" at MTJ that trekked North to RIETS.

And R. MD Tendler is R. Moshe's son-in-law.

I don't know the Rav's family tree, but there were tight relatinships and 
alliances formed between Soloveichi's. Feinsteins, The Netziv (Berlin) and 
others.  The Litvisher elite were often connected by various marriages...

Rich Wolpoe<




______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Soloveitchik & Feinstein 
Author:  <avodah@aishdas.org> at tcpgate 
Date:    11/3/1999 12:10 PM


> 
> It is also my impression that there were warm personal connections between the
> Rav and the Feinstein's who were after all his cousins. 
> 
Can someone please give the details of how Rav Soloveitchik was related to 
rav Moshe (something more than just that the Rav's maternal grandfather 
was a Feinstein).

Eli Turkel

On 3 Nov 99, at 18:40, Akiva Atwood wrote:

> Two observations -- one, that the author doesn't understand or approve of
> his brother's lifestyle; two, that he strung together a series of quotes
> (out of context) and incidents in order to portray his brother as
> unreasonable.

Last night we drove someone home from a wedding who was telling 
us about someone in the States who started an organization 
against baalei tshuva, and tried to portray them as a cult. This 
person said that eventually the Roshei Yeshiva of that person's son 
insisted that he make public statements to show that he was not 
crazy, because a chilul Hashem was arising out of the matter 
being ignored. I think that at the very least, anyone who is a baal 
tshuva needs to think about writing a response to the Newsweek 
article. Although I have to admit that I had a chuckle out of their 
portrayal of Litvish charedim as more "modern" and "reasonable," 
while portraying Chasidim as having gone off the deep end. 

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

     I have seen it claimed that Esrogim are not indigenous to Eretz 
     Yisrael but to India.  If that is true, the questioner continues, it 
     must have been a later addition to the Oral Law when they had been 
     transplanted to EY.  Does anyone know anything about this?  Is it 
     possible for scientists or historians to verify with any accuracy when 
     and if they were transplanted to EY?

Richard Wolpoe writes that "there were warm personal connections between the
Rav and the Feinstein's who were after all his cousins."  As I remember,
when Reb
Moshe's grandson, Shmuel Yaakov died in 1988, Rav Ahron Soloveitchik was one
of the masmidim.  It would appear that family relationships were close.

Levi Reisman

Didn't RSBY then go on and work for Yishuvo shel Olam by enabling land use (where there 
used to be cemeteries)  in Teveria and elsewhere in the North of Israel?

Also, isn't at least one source of others "doing the work" -- part of a Klala to 
Israel?


Shoshana

----------
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:43:15 +0200 ("IST)
From: Eli Turkel <turkel@math.tau.ac.il>
Subject: limudei chol

>      
>>Leimo ketanoi, the "chareidim" hold like RSBY, nasseh al yedei acheirim?>>
>>Harbeh asu keRSBY velo alsa biydeihem.  See the Gra that this derech 
>> is only valid for a minority.  It doesn't work for most people.

This does seem to have been the shita of RSBY himself!

Eli Turkel
-------------------------------------
Name: Shoshana L. Boublil
E-mail: toramada@mail.netvision.net.il
Date: 03/11/99
Time: 08:59:58 PM , Israel

This message was sent by Chameleon 
-------------------------------------
Torah U'Madah Ltd. is developing a DB on the topic:
"Environmental issues and the Halacha (Jewish Law)"
any and all related information would be welcome.

On 3 Nov 99, at 11:30, richard_wolpoe@ibi.com wrote:

  The Litvisher elite were often connected by various marriages...

That should read "are" often connected. The Steipler's wife was the 
Chazon Ish's sister. R. Chaim Kanievsky's wife is R. Elyashiv's 
daughter. I think R. Elyashiv and R. Shlomo Zalman were also 
machatonim. Nothing has changed in that regard....

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

I agree with Carl Sherer's comment that the politics of the fifties were
different than today's; that was one point the posting was intended to
make. The Ponevezer Rav wanted what, l'havdil, universities today refer
to as "diversity in the student body."

As for Gershon Dubin"s comment:
>I question the equation.  The fact that he did not protest the 
>presence
>of bachurim from those yeshivos does not necessarily imply that he
>approved of the respective curricula.  As a  matter of fact,  I would 
>be
>disappointed to hear (and yes, I know that it happens often)  that he
>held the chinuch they had against them in keeping them out of Ponevez. 
>
>Unless he was afraid of their adverse influence on their chaverim??
 
I am not aware that I was making an equation, just observing that Rav
Shach did not, to the best of my knowledge and that of my fellow
talmidim, take any stand against the presence of high school graduates in
large numbers in Ponevez.  And yes, when he attained his present status
the rule was made that no high school graduate could gain admission to
the Yeshiva (which is why there are virtually no Americans in Ponevez
today).  It should be pointed out, however, that in the Ponevezer Rav's
lifetime Rav Shach was the junior of the senior Roshei Yeshiva, being
outranked by Rav Shmuel Rozovsky zt"l and Rav Dovid Povarsky zt"l.  He
also played no role to speak of in life outside the Yeshiva; may I be
forgiven for saying it, but he did not have "gadol status" then.

Mayinyan l'inyan b'oso inyan: there has been much discussion here about
the ability of Americans to catch up to their Israeli counterparts who
did not have the distraction of limudei chol. As it happens, a basis for
comparison exists: it should be no different than it was for the Israeli
high school graduates of those years to catch up to their chaverim who
had not gone to high school but had learned b'hasmada during their early
teens.  Indeed, there were quite a few such graduates, who could more
than hold their own with the top echelon of bachurim. Several became
Roshei Yeshiva (one who comes to mind is Rav Avigdor Nebenzahl), although
to the best of my knowledge, none gave their sons a secular education.

As for Harry Maryles' query about Yom Ha'atzmaut, Tachanun was not said
in the Bais Medrash (though some students said it privately outside the
Bais Medrash, having too much derech eretz for the Ponevezer Rav to
flaunt their disagreement), and the Israeli flag was flown from the
Yeshiva rooftop.  There was instant "revisionist history": the claim was
made that the Rav's reason was his fear that otherwise he would be denied
access to the Aliyat Noar children being educated in his various mosdos
hachinuch--although that would justify the flag, not the tachanun.  In
general, in those years the expressed opposition to the existence of the
State of Israel was pretty much limited to Neturei Karta, and Yeshiva
circles were much more accepting of the state, while obviously opposing
many of its policies.  It was more a question of opposition to the
government than to the state as such.

Elazar M. Teitz

___________________________________________________________________
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Could someone explain today's footnote in the Lubavitch Calendar "HaYom
Yom".

Raffy



            Also, this day is part of the Didan Natzach victory,
            marking the issuance, in 5748 (1987), of a unanimous
            ruling by a Federal Appeals Court, confirming and
            strengthening the lower court's decision regarding
            the Sfarim and K'tavim of the Rebbe'im.
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
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On 3 Nov 99, at 14:12, remt@juno.com wrote:

> I am not aware that I was making an equation, just observing that Rav
> Shach did not, to the best of my knowledge and that of my fellow
> talmidim, take any stand against the presence of high school graduates in
> large numbers in Ponevez.  And yes, when he attained his present status
> the rule was made that no high school graduate could gain admission to
> the Yeshiva (which is why there are virtually no Americans in Ponevez
> today).  

I think there have been exceptions to that rule. Correct me if I am 
wrong, but I recall that several years ago there was a boy from 
Chevron HY"D who was killed in a terrorist attack who had been 
admitted to Ponevich despite having gone to high school at 
Shalavim.

-- Carl


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

And how many time did they cite the Rav zt'l?
sk

Alan Davidson wrote:

> Not to get into the debate of who is a gadol, but Chabad can have its own
> gedolim even not recognized universally as such -- the folks listed have at
> least as much torah learning under their belt as the "chachamim" who managed
> to write a certain five volume set of commentaries on Rashi without at least
> once citing a Rav from outside the litvishe velt and a handful of
> politically approved chassidic rebbeim.
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Last Friday, I happened to pick up a copy of the latest issue of 
Horizons while I was standing in line in the Sforim store. Horizons, 
for those who are not familiar with it, is a family magazine which is 
published four times a year by Targum Press. The latest issue 
contained interviews with four seminary girls regarding their 
experiences with spending Shabbos at people's homes in Israel. I 
was horrified to read that these girls (and it was either all of them or 
three out of four - I forget which - but even one is too many in my 
book) dread "out Shabbosim" in seminary, feel uncomfortable 
calling baalebatim to ask to come for Shabbos, feel that 
baalebatim are inspecting them, fear that those who know their 
parents are going to file reports with their parents as to what they 
ate and how they looked, etc., etc. One girl even classified her 
hosts: she said something to the effect of, "there are two types of 
hosts. One ignores you completely and one interrogates you." And 
that rang true, because Adina and I are interrogators... for at least 
five minutes or so at Friday night dinner. But that's really an 
attempt to find out who is spending Shabbos by us and to bring 
people out of their shells. We certainly don't do it maliciously....

Many of my fondest memories of my two years as an American 
bochur in Israeli Yeshivas involve spending Shabbosim and Chagim 
with relatives and friends of my parents, with Israeli colleagues from 
Yeshiva, and sometimes with total strangers. At no time did I feel 
uncomfortable, interrogated, or that someone was going to report to 
my parents about how I looked, what I ate, and whether I helped to 
clear the table. 

Adina and I have had (literally) hundreds of Shabbos guests since 
we got married; we actually advertise in the weekly electronic 
bulletin of our former home town in the US that we are willing to 
take Shabbos and Yom Tov guests; and it never occurred to me 
that our friends' children would worry about what we would report to 
their parents, or that kids would feel uncomfortable calling and 
asking to come for Shabbos. Adina claims that my shock at all 
this is because I'm a guy and therefore I don't understand the 
seminary girls' mentality (any current or former seminary girls want 
to comment?). 

One thing that IS different here from inviting company in the US is 
that here a student has to call and ask to be invited (at least the 
first time and by tradition often beyond). Then again, I can recall as 
a student in New York calling shuls and asking to be placed with 
baalebatim for Shabbos lunches, so that doesn't have to be totally 
uncomfortable either.

So what do we do? How do we make these kids feel at home?

-- Carl

P.S. For those of you who might happen to be in EY and are 
looking for places for Shabbos, my office phone number is at the 
bottom, and if you're embarassed to talk to a person, there's an 
answering machine on the phone at night (at least once I get out of 
here :- ). Bli ayin hara, our six children range in age from a 3-month 
old boy to a 16-year old girl if that makes a difference.


Carl M. Sherer, Adv.
Silber, Schottenfels, Gerber & Sherer
Telephone 972-2-625-7751
Fax 972-2-625-0461
mailto:csherer@netvision.net.il
mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.
Thank you very much.

*********************


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