Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 134

Friday, July 23 1999

• Re: Avodah V3 #132 textualism etc.
• Textualism etc...
• The Kennedy Curse
• Re: Avodah V3 #133
• Re: rift within the Halachic community
• divided community
• modern worship
• Re: chassidic rock music
• Re: The Kennedy Curse
• Re: chassidic rock music
• Re: rift within the Halachic community
• Har ha'Bayis
• Moshiach Website
• Re: modern worship
• Re: modern worship
• Re: rift within the Halachic community
• Shlomo Carlebach's music
• Re: Shlomo Carlebach's music
• Re: Shlomo Carlebach's music

I am not going to reopen the discussion about R' Chayim's now famous
article. I would just point out (in reference to Micha Berger's points)
that the Baal Shem Tov had a long "Mimetic" tradition from the Nistarim
and the Eastern European Kabbalists e.g. R' Adam Baal Shem of Ropschitz,
R'Eliyahu Baal Shem of Worms etc.. 

Likewise the Ari had a long "Mimetic" tradition from his Rabbeim e.g.
R'Betzalel Ashkenazi, author of the Shita Mekubetzes and Eliyahu Hanavi
(who I am told has a very reliable mimetic tradition!). 

Also, I believe Alan's point is that from it's beginnings onward
Chassidism- internally- has relied on it's Mesorah rather than only it's
classic texts for Minhag and Halachic choices.

Sh'lomo Yaffe writes:
:      the Baal Shem Tov had a long "Mimetic" tradition from the Nistarim
: and the Eastern European Kabbalists e.g. R' Adam Baal Shem of Ropschitz,
: R'Eliyahu Baal Shem of Worms etc..

He had a masorah to build on, but it wasn't mimetic. Mimetic tradition (a/k/a
"toras imecha") is doing what your father, grandfather, the neighbors, etc...
do. Chassidus certainly was NOT that. Founding a new derech and mimeticism
are contradictory notions. Mimeticism is about following the derech of ones
parents unselfconsciously. Halachah as lifestyle (Orach Chayim) first, law
second.

That's why I'm happier with Moshe Koppel's distinction of intuitive vs. formal.
Formalization is only a particular kind of textualism, one in which halachah
is a law that is manipulated by formal legal rules. Intuitive halachah is
halachah as seen by a native, where the person doesn't need formal rules
because one has an intuitive sense of right and wrong. Memeticism is one kind
of intuitivism, but not the only kind. The movements of the 18th and 19th
centuries were non-mimetic, but carried a less formal relationship with halachah
than we have today. They were new d'rachim in hashkafah which then had
halachic impact through their effects on the intuitive viewpoint.

(I hope Moshe will correct me if I misrepresented his views. He mentions
"Rupture and Reconstruction" in a footnote, but appears to think his dichotomy
is much closer to R' Dr. Soloveitchik's than I do.)

-mi

-- 
Micha Berger (973) 916-0287          MMG"H for 22-Jul-99: Chamishi, Vaeschanan
micha@aishdas.org                                         A"H O"Ch 340:25-31
http://www.aishdas.org                                    Pisachim 11a
For a mitzvah is a lamp, and the Torah its light.         Kuzari IV 29

I am just catching up on the last week, so if I missed it "ich bet
michilah".  Not one posting on the CURSE?!  Does anyone have any sort of
authentic, reliable information on this famous Kennedy  curse story?  If
it is indeed true, then why didn't the Gadol (im) curse Hitler?
___________________________________________________________________
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> From: Eli Turkel <turkel@icase.edu>
> Subject: beit hamikdash
> 
> Those interested in viewing the Temple on the net can see the
> (Chabad site) http://moshiach.com/mikdosh
> 
> It has some nice pictures - just avoid the home page moshiach.com

I would very much like to know exactly what you feel is necessary to avoid
on this page. Since you mention that this is a Chabad site I feel
that this comment, outside of the context of a specific and legitimate
concern about the content of the page, is an unfair and unfortunate 
negative reference to a part of the Jewish people.

I only briefly looked at the site but I did not find anything
objectionable there.

Josh Hoexter

Moshe Feldman wrote:

> RDE's reply to RET seems to imply that the phenomena that RET refers
> to are not all that bad.  After all, he implies, the non-acceptance
> of other groups derives from a concern for Jewish truth, and this
> leads to segments of the Jewish community treating other segments as
> being "beyond the pale."
>
> I believe that there is plenty of room for members of various
> subdivisions of the frum community to recognize their differences
> (and consider them important), even consider their particular form of
> avodat Hashem to be superior to that of other groups, yet maintain
> cordial relations with members of the other subdivisions.
> (Reminscent of the relations between the students of Bet Shamai and
> Bet Hillel.)
>
> Personally, I prefer the model of elu va'elu divrei elokim chayim.
> There are many paths towards avodat Hashem, and each person is
> blessed with his/her own chochot and netiyot which make them best
> suited to a particular derech.
>

I gather you hold that eilu v'eilu is a model which minimizes if not
eliminates the unpleasant results of having red lines and having to
decide whether someone has crossed them. Could you please explain what
exactly what you mean by the eilu v'eilu model? It obviously can't mean
that everything is permissible or is to be tolerated in the name of peace
and civility - or can it? Could you name some proponents of the eilu
v'eilu model?

                          Daniel Eidensohn

> There was an Symposium:"On Divided and Distinguished Worlds" in Tradition
> Winter 1992. Rabbi Moshe Eisemann page 32-34 said:

Actually, I found that article quite disturbing. If I recall he also said
that those who don't accept daat Torah are not really religious.

I still remember a TV news program from 40 years ago when there were fights
between Satmar and Lubavitch in Brooklyn (pre moshicah days). They interviewed
representatives of both communities and the Satmar reresentative stressed
that they are fighting over the spiritual lives of their children
as this correspondent is looking at amazement at the two hasidic clad
gentleman.

Religious wars are fought over everything. Again I have no doubt that
Yavetz was sincere in his desire to eradicate heretism. The fact is that
the fight did more damage than anything that R. Eibshutz could have done
(according to his opponents). Chasidim and Mitnagdim sent each other to
jail on false charges in order to prevent heretism.

One of the kinot we read on Tisha ba-av was about the burning of the Talmud
in Paris after the debates with R. Yichiel from Paris. A few years earlier
some rabbis requested the Dominicans to look at Rambam's books which they
burnt. It did not take the Dominicans too long to figure out that this
was a good tool in general.

The Agudah wanted to have a fast day in the 1930s because of the worsening
situation in Germany. They requested various rabbis to join in the 
proclamation of the fast. The rav from Munkacz refused on the grounds
that German Jewry deserved what was happening to them as the overwhelming
majority of German Jews were not religious. He was sure that Nazism would
not affect east European jewry since they were religious !!!

I recall a few years ago there was an attempt to close the Hesder yeshivot.
Mafdal turned to help to the haredi parties in the knesset. They refused on
the grounds that Hesder yeshivot are not "real" yeshivot.

Rabbi Eisemann basically says that whatever he declares to be important
is worth making a fight over no matter what the damage. If someone
disagrees with the halachic stance he will just be condemned or ignored.
The answer to Rav Kook or Rav Soloveitchik is simply to publish a teshuva
that one is prohibited to read their works.

I have no doubt that the Sicarii were well intentioned when they burned
the food supplies during the Roman siege of Jerusalem. The fact is
that they caused the destruction of the Temple.
Instead of Rabbi Eisemann I would suggest listening to Rabbi Frand who
speaks about loving ones neighbors and finding ways to understand their
faults. Only that will bring Mosiach.

kol tuv,
Eli Turkel

The European airplane manufacturer Airbus is offering to include a
synagogue aboard the planes it wishes to sell to El Al Israel Airlines.
Airbus is currently competing with Boeing for the sale of El Al's next
jumbo jets.  Hatzofeh's Danny Shalom reports that the plans call for a
synagogue to be built in the lower deck of the plane, and would include
seats for 12 worshippers, a full-size stand for Torah reading, and an Ark
for the Torah.  Airbus noted that it would be technically possible to
install the Torah Ark such that it would be able to revolve on its hinges
and face Jerusalem at all times.

Shaul Weinreb writes:

<<<
The point that I was trying to make
was only that I don't believe the problem with the music is the
"tumah" origins of the tunes and/or styles.  I recall being told so many
times how terrible it is that today's Jewish singers are borrowing from
the "goyim" and that any music that comes from rock music is "tamey" etc.
It is this contention that I disagree with.  There are contemporary love
songs that I think could easily be converted to holiness, and other
examples.  I was pointing out that any style of music, regardless of its
origins in the dark world of tumah can be made into beautiful and
inspiring neginah. I think we agree on this point.
Reb Shlomo Carlebach was mentioned, by the way, BeOznay Shamati mipiv,
that when my great grandfather came to New York during WWII, that Reb
Shlomo went to his tisch as a young boy, and his experience there inspired
him to devote his life to neginah.  I am very much inspired by his
music.   I also do not believe that today's
music is very spiritual at all, primarily for the reasons which I have
stated, but not because it originated in Tumah.
>>>

I totally agree.  The problem with today's Jewish or Chassidic rock music is that it preserves what is inherently objectionable in contemporary rock and pop music, a style of playing and instrumentation that overwhelms the music itself and produces an effect on the listener that is precisely the opposite of the effect that your ancestors and their followers sought to evoke in the listener.

David Glasner
dglasner@ftc.gov
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               !
!
!
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

SAMUEL A DREBIN wrote:
If
> it is indeed true, then why didn't the Gadol (im) curse Hitler? 
And why did they get a bracha to achieve all kinds of fame, honor, 
wealth, the presidency and much more?
Shabbat Shalom
steve katz

In a message dated 7/23/99 10:59:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
DGLASNER@FTC.GOV writes:

<< Shaul Weinreb writes:
 
 <<<
 The point that I was trying to make
 was only that I don't believe the problem with the music is the
 "tumah" origins of the tunes and/or styles.  I recall being told so many
 times how terrible it is that today's Jewish singers are borrowing from
 the "goyim" and that any music that comes from rock music is "tamey" etc.
 It is this contention that I disagree with.  There are contemporary love
 songs that I think could easily be converted to holiness, and other
 examples.  I was pointing out that any style of music, regardless of its
 origins in the dark world of tumah can be made into beautiful and
 inspiring neginah. I think we agree on this point.
 Reb Shlomo Carlebach was mentioned, by the way, BeOznay Shamati mipiv,
 that when my great grandfather came to New York during WWII, that Reb
 Shlomo went to his tisch as a young boy, and his experience there inspired
 him to devote his life to neginah.  I am very much inspired by his
 music.   I also do not believe that today's
 music is very spiritual at all, primarily for the reasons which I have
 stated, but not because it originated in Tumah.
 >>>
 
 I totally agree.  The problem with today's Jewish or Chassidic rock music is 
that it preserves what is inherently objectionable in contemporary rock and 
pop music, a style of playing and instrumentation that overwhelms the music 
itself and produces an effect on the listener that is precisely the opposite 
of the effect that your ancestors and their followers sought to evoke in the 
listener.
 
 David Glasner
 dglasner@ftc.gov
                                      >>
To quote another tamei source "Different strokes for different folks" (sly 
and the family stone(?)).  Let's agree that the evocation in the listener is 
the key and that each subset of listners find the music(and more importantly, 
for some at least, the words) that brings them closer to HKB"H.

Shabbat Shalom,
Joel Rich

In a message dated 7/23/99 11:18:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
yadmoshe@netmedia.net.il writes:

<< 
 I gather you hold that eilu v'eilu is a model which minimizes if not
 eliminates the unpleasant results of having red lines and having to
 decide whether someone has crossed them. Could you please explain what
 exactly what you mean by the eilu v'eilu model? It obviously can't mean
 that everything is permissible or is to be tolerated in the name of peace
 and civility - or can it? Could you name some proponents of the eilu
 v'eilu model?
 
                           Daniel Eidensohn
 
  >>
Chassidim and mitnagdim in the same political party?

Shabbat Shalom
Joel Rich

I would like to receive your comments on the exchange I have had with the
Arutz 7 e-mail news people over entering Har ha'Bayis. Let me note that I
have researched the issue in the past, and have given shiur on it, based
on the Techumin essays on the topic and other sources. I am well aware,
therefore, of the areas that are beyond question not part of the original
Har ha'Bayis, and, on the other hand, of the Cherem not to enter Har
ha'Bayis at all. The A7 news regularly reports on the struggles to daven
on Har ha'Bayis with a positive slant, as if this is a laudable struggle
to be condoned unstintingly and supported.

I have attempted to remonstrate with the editors, and they put a caveat in
before 9 Av, something like "many prominent Rabbis allow one to enter Har
Ha'Bayis with proper halachic precautions. I wrote them that this is still
Lifnei Iver, and they responded querying whether it is lifnei iver to tell
people that it is permitted to cook on Yom Tov after proper halachic
precautions. They also quoted some Rabbi I have never heard of who says no
one can say it is definitely forbidden to enter Har ha'Bayis. To which I
responded that no one can say it is definitely forbidden to eat
sturgeon...

To the best of my knowledge, acharei k'klos ha'kol, to the best of my
knowledge there are no signs on the Har ha'Bayis "ad kan".

I am very disturbed by this type of reporting, that seems to me in the
spirit of "ha'matara mekkadeshet et ha'emtza'im", and I would ask that
anyone with persuasive power with A7 protest this terrible michshol.

(Another example of this Halachically dangerous form of nationalsim, not
potential kares, as with Kenisa la'Mikdash, but Chiyuv Korban and perhaps
Missa b'yedei Shomayim", is a new drive I just saw written up in our local
A7 affiliate: "Israel News" to raise funds for the Third Temple. Hasn't
anyone told these folks that me'ilah is a grave sin?

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

I would like to defend RET here.

(WARNING! Run-on Sentence Alert!)

My point, in noting myself RET's "warning" about the website, was to
buttress a point that in fact, contrary to the understanding, perhaps, of
some, RET and I are in agreement that one is within one's rights - within
the framework of deference and mutual respect within the Halachic
community - to note one's objections and protestations of another segment
of our community's deviation from what we consider, respectively, to be
normative Orthodox view and behaviors. 

Otherwise, we succumb to political correctness, and lose the potential
positive impact of genuine and open debate on the issues that are real and
significant. 

The times I find this useless are when the debates are purely
sociological. 

On Fri, 23 Jul 1999, Josh Hoexter wrote:

> I would very much like to know exactly what you feel is necessary to
> avoid on this page. Since you mention that this is a Chabad site I feel
> that this comment, outside of the context of a specific and legitimate
> concern about the content of the page, is an unfair and unfortunate
> negative reference to a part of the Jewish people. 
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

If it would have been economically feasible, wouldn't El Al have done it
before? Me-ma nafshach - couldn't they squeeze more seats on the lower
level if they can put a shul there?

Nevertheless, the thought is tantalyzing...

On Fri, 23 Jul 1999, Eli Turkel wrote:

> 
> The European airplane manufacturer Airbus is offering to include a
> synagogue aboard the planes it wishes to sell to El Al Israel Airlines.
> Airbus is currently competing with Boeing for the sale of El Al's next
> jumbo jets.  Hatzofeh's Danny Shalom reports that the plans call for a
> synagogue to be built in the lower deck of the plane, and would include
> seats for 12 worshippers, a full-size stand for Torah reading, and an Ark
> for the Torah.  Airbus noted that it would be technically possible to
> install the Torah Ark such that it would be able to revolve on its hinges
> and face Jerusalem at all times.
> 
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Why take the fun out of squeezing 12 people into the aisle:-)?
On a more serious note, having the aron rotate on its hinges would mean that 
in some cases the aron would be facing completely away from the seats . This 
brings back the old question of which way to face when mizrach and the aron 
differ. 

Shabbat Shalom
Joel Rich


In a message dated 7/23/99 12:35:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
sbechhof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu writes:

<< 
 If it would have been economically feasible, wouldn't El Al have done it
 before? Me-ma nafshach - couldn't they squeeze more seats on the lower
 level if they can put a shul there?
 
 Nevertheless, the thought is tantalyzing...
 
 On Fri, 23 Jul 1999, Eli Turkel wrote:
 
 > 
 > The European airplane manufacturer Airbus is offering to include a
 > synagogue aboard the planes it wishes to sell to El Al Israel Airlines.
 > Airbus is currently competing with Boeing for the sale of El Al's next
 > jumbo jets.  Hatzofeh's Danny Shalom reports that the plans call for a
 > synagogue to be built in the lower deck of the plane, and would include
 > seats for 12 worshippers, a full-size stand for Torah reading, and an Ark
 > for the Torah.  Airbus noted that it would be technically possible to
 > install the Torah Ark such that it would be able to revolve on its hinges
 > and face Jerusalem at all times.
 > >>

--- Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@netmedia.net.il> wrote:
> Moshe Feldman wrote:
<snip>
> > I believe that there is plenty of room for members of various
> > subdivisions of the frum community to recognize their differences
> > (and consider them important), even consider their particular
> form of
> > avodat Hashem to be superior to that of other groups, yet
> maintain
> > cordial relations with members of the other subdivisions.
> > (Reminscent of the relations between the students of Bet Shamai
> and
> > Bet Hillel.)
> >
> > Personally, I prefer the model of elu va'elu divrei elokim
> chayim.
> > There are many paths towards avodat Hashem, and each person is
> > blessed with his/her own chochot and netiyot which make them best
> > suited to a particular derech.
> >
> 
> I gather you hold that eilu v'eilu is a model which minimizes if
> not
> eliminates the unpleasant results of having red lines and having to
> decide whether someone has crossed them. Could you please explain
> what
> exactly what you mean by the eilu v'eilu model? It obviously can't
> mean
> that everything is permissible or is to be tolerated in the name of
> peace
> and civility - or can it? Could you name some proponents of the
> eilu
> v'eilu model?

First, I have not eliminated red lines that are clearly mandated by
chazal (or other authority figures, e.g., Rambam), such as not
believing in Torah min hashamayim.  My point refers specifically to
views that on the one hand are not beyond the pale, but on the other
hand, I believe are either halachically weak (though having halachic
support), hashkafically weak (but having support), or simply not as
good halachically or hashkafically.

For example, I believe that Hashem's hand in the creation of the
State of Israel is clear and that a pareve position (such as that of
Agudah) as to the desirability of the State is almost a slap in the
face to Hashem who did us great chesed in creating the State (I seem
to recall Rav Meir Schlesinger making a similar statement).  I also
believe that all Yeshiva bochurim--other than those who are truly
brilliant and will become the gedolim/poskim of the next
generation--should do army service.  Now, I understand the charedi
view on this, but I disagree.  I nevertheless believe that a charedi
who acts based on his belief and sits and learns in a yeshiva w/o
going to the army is doing something very positive (though not as
positive as what is being done by Hesdernikim).  I also believe
that--although I intend to join the Hesdernik community in
Israel--there is benefit to having a charedi community (i.e., it is
not necessarily better that *everyone* should be like me).  

That having been said, members of different--legitimate--communities
should be respectful and friendly with each other.  For example, I
was very impressed with the way Rav Sholom Kamenetsky (of
Philadelphia) treated me.  I have no haveh aminah that he will become
a YUnick, but he seemed genuinely interested in what I had to say
(and naturally, the reverse is true as well) and treated me with
respect.  (Of course, the sever panim yafot extended by the
Kamenetsky family is legendary.)  OTOH some Israeli charedi cousins
(while friendly towards me because of our family ties) did not extend
the same respect towards me.  Apparently, they could not distinguish
between views that they disagreed with and views that are heretical.

My views on elu v'elu are (loosely) based on the articles by Rabbi
Michael Rosensweig in both the Torah U'Maddah Journal (vol 1 OR 2)
and in the volume by the Orthodox Forum entitled "Halakhic Authority
and Personal Autonomy."  He noted that the brother of the Marahal
emphasized that each person is different and that is why the Torah
was given with shiv'im panim; in fact, each person at Mt. Sinai
understood something slightly different. 

Kol tuv,
Moshe
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Just for the record - Someone on the Avodah list recently made the assertion
that "that Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach z"l was inspired by pre-Renaissance
music".  Although I can't honestly say that I know what pre-Renaissance
music is, it sounded a bit fishy to me.  I ran it past a well known Jewish
musicologist (who did not what to be quoted because he was not interested in
receiving "all kinds of narishe e mail and phone calls" - so even if you
think you know who it might be please respect his desire for anonimity) who
very strongly disagreed.

Gad Frenkel

On Fri, 23 Jul 1999, Frenkel, Garry J. wrote:

> Just for the record - Someone on the Avodah list recently made the
> assertion that "that Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach z"l was inspired by
> pre-Renaissance music".  Although I can't honestly say that I know what
> pre-Renaissance music is, it sounded a bit fishy to me.  I ran it past a
> well known Jewish musicologist (who did not what to be quoted because he
> was not interested in receiving "all kinds of narishe e mail and phone
> calls" - so even if you think you know who it might be please respect
> his desire for anonimity) who very strongly disagreed. 
> 

Since I know nothing about music theory, and little about music itself
(except that I love Carlebach and detest almost everything else
post-1980), I cannot comment as to the issue itself. I think, however,
that perhaps the impression on the Carlebach influence is probably rooted
in one of his major disciples' - Ben Zion Solomon - having a Masters
degree in pre-Elizabethean music. 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Uh, I haven't really had time to respond to this thread, although as an 
active participant (or perpetrator) in Jewish Music, (I just got back from 
playing with Avraham Fried) who has performed with Carlebach a number of 
times, one can imagine I have some very pungent opinions on this subject. As 
for the Pre renaissance music business, to quote my Rebbe from YU, (H. 
Reichman) .....PLEASE!.....

Good Shabbos,

Jordan  

*********************


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