Avodah Mailing List

Volume 03 : Number 110

Monday, July 5 1999

• Shabbat Shootings in Chicago
• Recent Deliberations on Avodah
• Re: Shabbat Shootings in Chicago
• Re: Shabbat Shootings in Chicago
• Re: Avodah V3 #109
• Hilchos tisha ba'av
• Greetings
• Dante and fervor
• Re:"Hayid"
• Re: R. Lichtenstein on liberal arts
• Trip Assistance

Could any of you on the list who currently live in Chicago please provide
us with details, including names, on the Friday night shooting of the Jews
coming home from shul?

hg

.............................................................................
                             Hershel Ginsburg, Ph.D.
              Licensed Patent Attorney and Biotechnology Consultant
                          P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27
                                  Efrat, 90435
                                    Israel
              Phone: 972-2-993-8134        FAX: 972-2-993-8122
                         e-mail: ginzy@netvision.net.il
.............................................................................

I was somewhat perturbed by some of the recent deliberations on our list.
I was dismayed to think that I could not recommend our list as a showcase
for Orthodoxy because of bickering about persons and groups - not
exclusively issue oriented. This is, of course, not true about all the
strains of conversation that are running simultaneously here, but is very
true about the "Sheep Mentality" and "Charedi School" threads.

While we each had somewhat different visions of what this list should
strive to achieve, both Micha our listowner, and I, in an earlier
incarnation of part of the list as "baistefila", envisioned a list that
strove for the "his'alus" of "Ha'Olim", the group of Ovdei Hashem
concerned with the betterment of persons and societies through mutual
enrichment and common toil in areas of "da'as, tiferes and rachamim"
desctibed by the group's founding father, Dr. Nathan Birnbaum (one of my
heroes, grandfather-in-law of listmember Frieda Birnbaum), expounded in
documents available at the aishdas.org website. I believe that an
expansion of tha goal to include the type of discussions we often see take
place between my brother-in-law Chaim Brown and R' Yitzchok Zirkind on
halachic issues is an additional facet that is very positive. I also
believe we all enjoy witty repartee and lively debate. But true to the
ideals of Ha'Olim, we must avoid the prevalent pitfall of argument over
POV's - especially when that leads to besmirching slander - rather than
what we should be doing - mutual enrichment and his'alus.

And then yiskayem banu: "V'ra'u kol amei ha'aretz ki shem Hashem nikra
alecha" and Avodah will be a showcase of Kiddush Shem Shomayim.

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

I did not hear the news today, and I do not get a paper on Shabbos, but
from what I have heard, a gunman described as a white "skinhead" went on a
rampage, killing a black Northwestern Basketball Coach in Skokie, killing
or wounding several Asians in Northbrook, and wounding several Orthodox
Jews in the West Rogers Park area at approximately 8:30 pm Friday night,
at different locations between Devon and Touhy and Kedzie and California. 
None of the Jews, B"H, suffered life threatening wounds. The gunman has
not bben apprehended. The names I have heard include the son of R'
Yitzchok Wolf, the brother of Dr. Jordan Hupert, Mr. Saphire, and Dr. 
Allswang. 

May we hear only besuros tovos.

On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Hershel Ginsburg wrote:

> Could any of you on the list who currently live in Chicago please
> provide us with details, including names, on the Friday night shooting
> of the Jews coming home from shul? 
> 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

Hershel Ginsburg wrote:
> 
> Could any of you on the list who currently live in Chicago please provide
> us with details, including names, on the Friday night shooting of the Jews
> coming home from shul?
> 
> hg
> 
> ............................................................................
>                              Hershel Ginsburg, Ph.D.
>               Licensed Patent Attorney and Biotechnology Consultant
>                           P.O. Box 1058 / Rimon St. 27
>                                   Efrat, 90435
>                                     Israel
>               Phone: 972-2-993-8134        FAX: 972-2-993-8122
>                          e-mail: ginzy@netvision.net.il
> ............................................................................

Six Orthodox Jews were wounded but not life threatening wounds.One black 
Man, former Northwestern University Basketball coach, Ricky Birdsong, 
was killed.  The names of the Orthodox Jews have not been made public to 
my knowledge. A white man in his late 20's driving a blue Ford Taurus, 
got out of his car for the first shooting and wounded one person.  The 
others were drive by shootings.  There were three neighborhoods 
involved. The first and the one with the most shootings was the highly 
Orthodox neighborhood of West Rogers Park.  All the targets were highly 
identifiable Orthodox Jews wearing their Shabbos clothes on thier way 
home from various early shabbos - friday night Minyonim. The 2 closest 
shootings to my house were both three blocks away in different 
directions.  All the shootings were within walking distance.  When I was 
on my way home from shul last night at approximately 9:00 PM the 
shootings were still going on in the highly Jewish (with many orthodox 
residents)  Suburb of Skokie, where Ricky Birdsong was shot and Killed. 
 The perpetrator then went on to Suburban Northbrook, also, highly 
Jewish and shot at some Asians, who were not injured. The police 
presense has been increased in West Rogers Park.  The Perpetrator is 
still at large.

HM

Whoops! mistake
Tzion Halotishali is by R. Yehudah Halevi
Ushgiot mi yavin

1) Can anyone give me an explanation of siman taf-kuf-nun/mishna brura
alef  ( viasur lifrotz geder )?  Which halachos/minhagim/divrei neviim
are up for a vote, and how does this work?

2) Mishna Brura oss vav, same siman- What is the correct definition of
choocha u'tlula with regardto wearing shoes (mockery?!)
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Shalom and Greeting to all my Brothers and Sisters in HaShem!

My name is Mindy and I am rather new to the list. I kind of kept on the quiet
side until I had something to say.

I have a question about Jewish Books especially on the subject of Halacha. I
live in a rural area and Judiac books just can't be found.
I tried searching the internet and asked for catalogs of the Jewish Publishers
that had websites. I anyone is pretty knowledgeable about where a good variety
of Jewish books in English can be found, I am definately open to suggestion.

I heard early this morning on CNN that there were some Orthodox Jews shot at
in Chicago while walking to or from shul. This just grieves my spirit and
soul. Please pray for the victims and familes that were afflicted by this
awful hate crime.

God Bless You!

Mindy

> 
> Please: nothing in our medieval Poetry to rival Dante?
>  what about "Akdamot" or R. Shlomo Gabirols' "Keter Malchut"? 
> Augustinian fervor is as nothing compared with the fire of Selichot or
> Gabirols "Tzion Halo-tishalee".Plato is the direct ideological ancestor
> of Nazism! 

The topics addressed by Dante and Augustine are very different from
Akdamot or Selihot. Setting them in competition with each other is
therefore a doubtful enterprise.

More to the point: Fervor and literary value and the kind of psychological
insight that is useful for heshbon ha-nefesh are very different things.
Fervor is when a crowd loudly roars approval of itself, or when an
individual asserts wild propositions of which he or she knows nothing and
clinches them by adding exclamation points.

If words have any meaning at all, it is bizarre to assert that Plato
"directly" spawned Nazism. Whether or not there is any analogy or
connection is a subject that requires serious study of Plato and Nazism.
Such a study may be very rewarding and lead to serious self-examination.
For example, Plato, in the Republic, and in a different way in the Laws,
held that the intellectual elite of a society ought to determine the
way everything is to be conducted. It may be that vesting all authority in
an elite cadre is indeed dangerous and leads to all sorts of stupidity and
corruption, and it may be that examining this aspect of Plato and the way
similar ideas work themselves out in the modern world, can illuminate our
situation. But this requires a greater commitment to the study of
philosophy and political history than many of us have the patience for.

"Tsion ha-lo tishali" is indeed magnificent poetry. I think that an
appreciation of its literary quality may contribute to its religious
function (though, as indicated above, the religious significance of a work
of poetry is not a product of its literary excellence). It is not
absolutely necessary, though it doesn't hurt, to know that it was written
by R. Yehuda Halevi, not Ibn Gabirol.

Enough said.

I recently came across a gemora in sotah (18:) where the Rabbis accepted the 
"testimony" of nechunia chofer shichin concerning whether a sota could drink 
more than once.  I know of other places where the gemora uses the word hayid 
in similar contexts. Sometimes it seems to be used when "quoting" some other 
authority (e.g., yivamot(67.) and I wonder why its not just amar. Sometimes 
its factual cases being reported and I assume its being used as testify, not 
in the sense of bet din but in a more colloquial sense. Here however I'm not 
sure what exactly is being "testified" versus stating an opinion of one's 
own.  Is anyone familiar with any kllalim having to do with this terminology 
in shas?

Kol Tuv,
Joel Rich

Shalom Carmy wrote:

> R. Lichtenstein has published three articles on the subject.

Just a request for clarification. My understanding - as a curious outsider -
is that Rav Lichtenstein's approach to secular studies is uniquely his.  An
acquaintance who was close to Rav Soleveitchik told me that in the last 25
years of his life - he never saw Rav Soleveitchik with a secular book.

Did Rav Soleveitchik subscribe to Rav Lichtenstein's approach at any point?


                                                        Daniel Eidensohn

Shalom Rav!

My mother and my two sons depature date to EY is looming closer (July 26)
and I still do not have an adequate solution for housing for them for the
three weeks they are there. (On the other hand, I received lots of good
suggestions for tour guides that I have followed up upon). I am thankful
for a couple of gracious invitations for Shabbos, but I need to find a
place or room to let, preferably with A/C, for the balance of those three
weeks, that is reasonable. I would, of course, greatly, greatly appreciate
any help or leads! Thank you very much!

KT, 

YGB

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
Cong. Bais Tefila, 3555 W. Peterson Ave., Chicago, IL, 60659
ygb@aishdas.org, http://www.aishdas.org/baistefila

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